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Hearing damage, tone and live sound.

#21
I never wore ear protection until a few years ago. Better late than never, I guess. I use the Invalid Link Removed earplugs with active electronics. They are pricey ($300) but they work well and you don't have to take them out to have a conversation. Biggest drawback is that they eat hearing aid batteries like crazy. I keep a wheel of the #10s in my case.
 
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#22
I have tinnitus. It definitely sucks, but you learn to live with it. I was staring out the window today, it was about 72 degrees out, perfectly sunny, slight breeze going through the trees. I couldn’t hear the leaves rustling, all I could hear was the ringing.

Being in a quiet room gets stressful if you focus on the ringing. But, it’s still not that bad, and I am much, much more aware of the possibility of hearing damage.

The thing is, no one tells you that you are going to have this constant ringing in addition to hearing loss.
 
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#23
Bass Boy said:
I have always worn hearing protection when I play in a live environment that is excessively loud (or even moderately loud) I have been lucky to not lose too much of my range. Something I have noticed, especially when playing with players over 40 in more "rock" environments is that I am usually the only one wearing protection (hearing, that is). After I set up my stage sound/volume I sometimes get comments that the sound is muffled or doesnt have enough highs. When I listen there is plenty of tone, range and IMO more treble than I need! I also find these same folks, when doing the FOH sound have piercing highs that cause me pain. Unfortunately when I mention that they may be using too much high end as a result of hearing loss over the years they are less than receptive. Too me it seems obvious that decads of loud guitars, drums and stage volume is gonna take its toll. Just venting here but anyone else run into this? (Maybe I just been playing jazz for too long ;) )
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Yes! I have rehearsals at my house in a bonus room over my garage. It's a great place to rehearse.... long and narrow room. Drums at the far is and the rest of us staggered the length of the room.

It gets PAINFULLY loud in there to me. And I'm the only one in my band wearing earplugs. I have a whole hug if them on a table and have told them they are all welcome to grab a pair whenever they like. No takers. I gotta wonder what their hearing is like.

And there is one sound guy around here who must have lost ALL of his high-pitch hearing. The snare drum sounds like a .22 rifle and a bass player popping a string will tear your head off.
 
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#25
Bass Boy said:
...anyone else run into this? (Maybe I just been playing jazz for too long ;) )
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Nope, I wouldn't say it's too much jazz! ;)

Since about 12 years ago I've been in metal bands, grunge bands, alt rock bands, punk bands, and prog metal bands....recently garage rock and indie too. Most of these bands were with young guys and heavy-handed drummers but nothing came close to a metal band consisting of these guys in their lower 50's that I played with. The guitarist had two side-by-side Marshall 4x12 cabs powered by a PA power amp, used a Line 6 floor POD of some kind for preamp, but that's kids stuff....

The singer had a 4k watt power amp with a mixer hooked up to TWO PA cabs with 2x15s and a horn in each. Nobody went through the PA but him. I have been in some loud situations but I literally became dizzy and nauseous in there. I almost fell over once and had to sit down. I made the mistake of not wearing earplugs once, but brought them every time after. When I said "Hey guys, maybe we could try practicing with the volume down some?" but was promptly told (like I didn't know already) that The Who practiced at full volume. They also stated they couldn't hear as good as they used to...gee, I wonder why :meh:

For more than a couple of reasons I left that group (like the singer giving me the 3rd degree about not eating all organic food), but that was the first and last time a band was so loud that I almost fell over from dizziness.
 
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#26
Bass Boy said:
I have always worn hearing protection when I play in a live environment that is excessively loud (or even moderately loud) I have been lucky to not lose too much of my range. Something I have noticed, especially when playing with players over 40 in more "rock" environments is that I am usually the only one wearing protection (hearing, that is). After I set up my stage sound/volume I sometimes get comments that the sound is muffled or doesnt have enough highs. When I listen there is plenty of tone, range and IMO more treble than I need! I also find these same folks, when doing the FOH sound have piercing highs that cause me pain. Unfortunately when I mention that they may be using too much high end as a result of hearing loss over the years they are less than receptive. Too me it seems obvious that decads of loud guitars, drums and stage volume is gonna take its toll. Just venting here but anyone else run into this? (Maybe I just been playing jazz for too long ;) )
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I have to laugh. I've been playing gigs since 1966 and I toured for 3 years in the early 70's, playing 5-nights a week, 50-weeks a year. That is when I did the most damage to my hearing. I've continued to play casual gigs ever since and last year went for a hearing test. My hearing was excellent right up to about 3KHz. Then it sank right down to the bottom of the graph. I have since gone to hearing aids so I can understand what people around me are saying as those higher frequencies are what makes voices distinguishable. Otherwise I hear them just fine but can't figure out what they are saying.

So, Yeah! If they've been mixing sound for years with no hearing protection then they almost certainly have lost a big chunk of their upper frequency hearing. And NO, you're not crazy for suspecting this.
 
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#27
I use to go to a ton of shows back in the day, and NEVER believed in hearing loss. Dumass the Invincible...
Then, I grew-up and heard the crack of 5.56.
Ear pro all day and night, twice on Sundays. The only time I do not wear it is at home when practicing. Yes, a TON of FOH use too much highs. I've even learned to control my vocals while using ear pro.
Use it or lose it.
 
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#29
craigie said:
I heard this was a problem with British sound guys. May or may not be true, probably from back in the day and certainly not limited to limeys.

Makes sense that as you damage a certain frequency you increase it and cause further damage. I usually find a harsh high mid quality to mixes done by long time musicians which hurt my ears. With my tinnitus my ears are so sensitive I have to use plugs in any live music situation that’s not an Unamplified acoustic guitar.
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Why Brits? What do they have that makes them special in this regard?
 
#34
Rip Van Dan said:
I have to laugh. I've been playing gigs since 1966 and I toured for 3 years in the early 70's, playing 5-nights a week, 50-weeks a year. That is when I did the most damage to my hearing. I've continued to play casual gigs ever since and last year went for a hearing test. My hearing was excellent right up to about 3KHz. Then it sank right down to the bottom of the graph. I have since gone to hearing aids so I can understand what people around me are saying as those higher frequencies are what makes voices distinguishable. Otherwise I hear them just fine but can't figure out what they are saying.

So, Yeah! If they've been mixing sound for years with no hearing protection then they almost certainly have lost a big chunk of their upper frequency hearing. And NO, you're not crazy for suspecting this.
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So people sound like Charlie Brown adults? Damn, that sucks.

The guys in the monitor iron sided war ship in the civil war went deaf in a matter of days. Thank god for technology and changing mindsets
 
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#35
Early on I had a really hard hitting drummer who would beat the crap out of a china boy cymbal pointed right at my ear and I still have hearing loss in it. I use IEMs and keep the volume sane and hope others catch on.
 
#36
Wasnex said:
Most common hearing tests don't evaluate the full 20-20kHz range. Occupational health types are primarily concerned if you can understand people talking, so I think regular hearing tests typically top out around 8kHz.
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Not correct, or not for real audiologists. They check for what the human ear is capable of hearing and note what is lacking. Also, the ability to hear and understand a human voice speaking the language you know requires that you hear "s", "t",& "p" nuances that are made from air manipulated with teeth, toung, & lips. Those sounds extend to a much higher frequency than vocal chords produce, but are extremely important in accurately comprehending the spoken word. Anyone that can't hear frequencies above 8khz is going to be well versed at asking people to repeat what they said.
 
#37
I have (slight) hearing loss, and I work sound part-time. What keeps me going is I listen to home stereo that is tuned to be flat. When I work sound, I match the sound I am used to. Ok, I admit it, I tend to favor bass a little. :-) I find more bass creates a darker band sound, which I happen to like anyway, so I am not as prone to boosting mids and highs as others might be.

I also know who the other good sound guys are, and I listen to what they do, just like they listen to me (I am their teacher in most cases).

Yet I know my days as a sound guy are numbered. I'm already using compensation techniques, and they will only work for so long. I also guard what hearing I have left as much as possible.

So far, musicians in the audience tell me my mixes are good, at some point they will be lying and hopefully I'll be able to pick up on it.
 
#38
Tim Skaggs said:
Not correct, or not for real audiologists. They check for what the human ear is capable of hearing and note what is lacking. Also, the ability to hear and understand a human voice speaking the language you know requires that you hear "s", "t",& "p" nuances that are made from air manipulated with teeth, toung, & lips. Those sounds extend to a much higher frequency than vocal chords produce, but are extremely important in accurately comprehending the spoken word. Anyone that can't hear frequencies above 8khz is going to be well versed at asking people to repeat what they said.
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Obviously more comprehensive hearing tests are possible, but the annual tests I was required to take pretty much met minimum OSHA requirements. The tests were administered by a technician who monitored an automated process. An audiologist performed more extensive testing when I experienced a threshold shift.

Some key OSHA guidelines:

1910.95(g)(10)(i)
As used in this section, a standard threshold shift is a change in hearing threshold relative to the baseline audiogram of an average of 10 dB or more at 2000, 3000, and 4000 Hz in either ear.


1910.95(h)(1)
Audiometric tests shall be pure tone, air conduction, hearing threshold examinations, with test frequencies including as a minimum 500, 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, and 6000 Hz. Tests at each frequency shall be taken separately for each ear.​

Ref page: 1910.95 - Occupational noise exposure. | Occupational Safety and Health Administration

My apologies on my claims of 8kHz for the highest tested frequency...as you see it's actually 6kHz for occupational hearing tests.
 
#39
Yep, the OP is dead on. I have profound hearing loss, mostly on the right, and never used protection until the loss was becoming apparent about a decade ago.
Where I got my "ah-ha" moment was when mixing a recording (we rehearsed and recorded at my place) that included a shaker. I got this "whoa, that shaker needs to come down" from the guys. That pretty much ended it for me as I knew I'd never really be able to mix well again.
On a positive note, I get away with using cheap IEMs these days since fidelity doesn't really matter the way it use to.
When not in IEMs I use Earasers, which are 19db, to protect whatever it is that I have left, when at rehearsal or at a concert.
 
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