Double Bass Hearing Diminished...

[Silevesq]

Hey everyone, hope you are doing fine!?

Some of you may remember my quest with sight singing, still working on that by the way and very happy about the road I have travelled so far. For the past few years I have been getting rid of some of the weird scales that they "teach" you in school and I have been slowly re-incorporating some by working on hearing them.

This is where things start to get messy, I am working on the diminished scale. I have considered many things be it theory, relationship to the fingerboard (electric and double), I am planning many things.
1-2-b3-4-b5-#5-b6-7.
Or however you want to see it. W-H or H-W. The four tonic that can be derived according to the origin you want to use. The symmetry that can be used. The triads that can be yield. Minor, Major, Diminish... There is a lot, that I can think of. But in the end, I'd like to feel the pulling attraction of each note in it as much as possible within what can be done with a symmetric scale.

What do I want? I am asking you to challenge me in how I hear this. Musical exemple that you have, jazz, classical, anything. Jazz piece that use this in their theme. Lick if you want, I don't know surprise me!

 

[Don Kasper]

Don't conflate "Whole/Half" with "Half/Whole". They are 2 different scales and are not interchangeable.
W/H - C, D, Eb, F, Gb,Ab, A, B, C. Play&Sing this arpeggio at a keyboard - C, Eb, Gb, A, B, D, F, Ab.
H/W - C, Db, Eb, E, F#,G, A, Bb, C. Play&Sing this arpeggio at a keyboard - C,E,G,Bb,Db,Eb,F#,A. (I was taught the name for this is the INVERTED Diminished scale...Because it begins with a Half Step interval.) If you know the Duke Ellington/Juan Tizol tune "Caravan", this scale and arpeggio supports the A section of the melody. Sing/Play the melody against the 8 note arpeggio - fits like a glove.)
This is how I approach hearing and understanding the Diminished World.
Thanks for your time.

 

[fu22ba55]

I thought this was a thread about hearing loss. I'm projecting again.

 

[rickwolff]

I thought this was a thread about hearing loss. I'm projecting again.

I did too. I can relate more easily to that as I have significant high frequency loss but now have good new hearing aids. Good thing I don't play piccalo.

[End derail]

 

[JBarz]

Don't conflate "Whole/Half" with "Half/Whole". They are 2 different scales and are not interchangeable.

+1 this.

Also to add, I consider the diminished tonality to function like ‘neutral’ does when you’re driving a stick-shift. It is a means to shift between your 12 gears (tonal centers).

I always like to have my students imagine tonality like the movie “inside out”: you are surrounded by 12 different “islands” or “solar systems” (keys). The diminished tonality serves like the monorail system at Disney world - the quickest way connecting all the ‘parks’.

For ear training, I don’t think it can exist functionally without relating to some key center, if that makes sense. If you want to “hear” how it relates to tonal gravity, etc, it’s 100% dependent on where you want to enter/exit the wormhole (Sorry for mixing metaphor — been watching Farscape with the kids…)

 

[lurk]

I did too. I can relate more easily to that as I have significant high frequency loss but now have good new hearing aids. Good thing I don't play piccalo.

[End derail]

This is a derail, sorry, but what hearing aids did you get? Do you wear them all the time or just occasionaly? Was there a "break in period? Do you have tinnitus, and if so, do they help?

 

[lurk]

About dim sounds, what Kasper said. For me, it's usually best to hear them in relation to the Dominant 7th chord they are indicating.

 

[Carl Hillman]

Hey everyone, hope you are doing fine!?

Some of you may remember my quest with sight singing, still working on that by the way and very happy about the road I have travelled so far. For the past few years I have been getting rid of some of the weird scales that they "teach" you in school and I have been slowly re-incorporating some by working on hearing them.

This is where things start to get messy, I am working on the diminished scale. I have considered many things be it theory, relationship to the fingerboard (electric and double), I am planning many things.
1-2-b3-4-b5-#5-b6-7.
Or however you want to see it. W-H or H-W. The four tonic that can be derived according to the origin you want to use. The symmetry that can be used. The triads that can be yield. Minor, Major, Diminish... There is a lot, that I can think of. But in the end, I'd like to feel the pulling attraction of each note in it as much as possible within what can be done with a symmetric scale.

What do I want? I am asking you to challenge me in how I hear this. Musical exemple that you have, jazz, classical, anything. Jazz piece that use this in their theme. Lick if you want, I don't know surprise me!

I've used this example before. The "A" sections are based on a D half/whole diminished tonality.

 

[Don Kasper]

Good thing I don't play piccalo.

Or, Piccolo!!!!
Sorry...Really...

 

[Tom Lane]

I have a question about applying the Diminished "sounds". I suspect that I already know "my" answer, but I'd like to hear more educated opinions, if you're willing. If you'd prefer me to start my own thread, just let me know and I'll do so.

Recently, I was taught Willie Thomas' framework on the Diminished scale - WH, after having been exposed quite a bit to Barry Harris' approach. The nice thing about Thomas' framework is that it provides an easy way to invent patterns and licks and I can see why saxophonists and trumpet players like it so much - since they can play so quickly. I think I can see how the "WH Diminished" sound can be used over V chords, and to a lesser extent Major and Minor chords too in a solo or melody, but for basslines, I'm thinking we want to stay away from using the extensions and Diminished sound too much, because, if we do, we're removing the foundation for the "sound" that the soloist is creating. Correct? Incorrect? Maybe? Sometimes? Nearly always? Never on Mondays?

 

[Don Kasper]

I've used this example before. The "A" sections are based on a D half/whole diminished tonality.

Yes...A beautiful example of the "Caravan" chord (in D) - D7,b9,#9,#11,13...using the H/W scale starting on D - D,Eb,F,F#,G#,A,B,C,D. (I call it D Inverted Diminished, because I like to spell/hear/play from the root, as a starting point.)
Thanks, Carl.

 

[Groove Doctor]

I hear Diminished chords in Functional harmony framework.

Key of C major.
1. Hymns.
To fit around chromatic half-steps in the melody.
C - Cdim (triad) - C.

2. As a passing chord.
Cmaj7 - C#°7 - Dm7
Fmaj7 - F#°7 - G7
G7 - G#°7 - Am7

3. Renamed inversion
Am7 - B° (G7 b9 /B no root) - Cmaj7
ie. Functionally a vi- V7 - I (reharmonised).

4. Minor ii° - V - i turnaround
B° - E7 - Am7
Note the tension/release
- In B°, the bb7 (Ab)
-> Leads into the enharmonic Nat 3rd (G#) of the V7 chord (E7) = melodic minor scale
-> Then released into the tonic A of the Am chord.


5. #11 chords.
I’m no expert here, I’ll let other chime in. Warning - there are strong & mixed opinions.

6. Other.


Get your ear and voice around these first.
Sit down at the piano and comp away at these progressions with dim chords. Sing each note in every chord. Look for harmony lines flowing/connecting between the chords.

Hopefully you’ll realise that dim chords are simply one (or two) chord notes different from other classic progressions, and also they set up exciting opportunities for chord extensions with their neighbouring chords.

Then lastly try H-W and W-H scales over each chord sequence and see what your ear gravitates towards, and where you need to experiment/ stretch your ear.

 

[Don Kasper]

4. Minor ii° - V - i turnaround
B° - E7 - Am7

The ii7 chord in Minor is HALF-Diminished - Not Diminished. In the key of Amin, Bmin7,b5 (also known as B half-diminished) is the diatonic ii7 chord, not B diminished.
Diminished and Half-Diminished chords are not interchangeable.
I would strongly discourage interchanging Half-Diminished chords with Diminished chords (and vice versa.)
Thank You.

 

[Groove Doctor]

Interesting reading.
A Simple Guide To Using Diminished Chords (Add Tension & Color)

 

[Tom Lane]

Interesting reading.
A Simple Guide To Using Diminished Chords (Add Tension & Color)

That was an interesting read! Thanks for posting!

 

[oren]

26646482[/URL], member: 191949"]That was an interesting read! Thanks for posting!

It was interesting , but I sure find it hard to decipher the midi piano role notation.

 

[Sam Sherry]

Aw man, my day is better already!
That was Bran, yes?

 

[Carl Hillman]

Aw man, my day is better already!
That was Bran, yes?

I believe it's Jerry Bergonzi on that track.

Yeah, that's a pretty stout first album for a 25-year-old.

 

[Trivolis]

Hey everyone, hope you are doing fine!?

Some of you may remember my quest with sight singing, still working on that by the way and very happy about the road I have travelled so far. For the past few years I have been getting rid of some of the weird scales that they "teach" you in school and I have been slowly re-incorporating some by working on hearing them.

This is where things start to get messy, I am working on the diminished scale. I have considered many things be it theory, relationship to the fingerboard (electric and double), I am planning many things.
1-2-b3-4-b5-#5-b6-7.
Or however you want to see it. W-H or H-W. The four tonic that can be derived according to the origin you want to use. The symmetry that can be used. The triads that can be yield. Minor, Major, Diminish... There is a lot, that I can think of. But in the end, I'd like to feel the pulling attraction of each note in it as much as possible within what can be done with a symmetric scale.

What do I want? I am asking you to challenge me in how I hear this. Musical exemple that you have, jazz, classical, anything. Jazz piece that use this in their theme. Lick if you want, I don't know surprise me!

Here is something that works for me : a G7 b9 13 chord can be thought of as an Fdim maj7 chord ( F Ab B E) . That arpegio is easy to play and gets you to the b9 13 sound which is typical of the V7 H-W diminished sound.
The arpegio shape can be moved in minor 3rds and you get different alterations on the V7 chord,all part of the H-W dim scale.
However, the one starting on the b7 of the V7 chord is my favourite.
By the way the b9 13 chord can be heard very clearly on the " On the sunny side of the street" standard on the "Sonny side up" record, it is the very first chord played on that track. The pickup melody note is the 3rd of the key so that chord sounds great there.

 

[Don Kasper]

By the way the b9 13 chord can be heard very clearly on the " On the sunny side of the street" standard on the "Sonny side up" record, it is the very first chord played on that track. The pickup melody note is the 3rd of the key so that chord sounds great there.

You nailed it...good Earz.
Thanks for contributing solid information to TB.