Help Me Put Together a Compact Bi-Amp Rig

[FugaziBomb]

Let me just preface that my current rig is huge. It's great for big stages and outdoor gigs, but it's a real pain (literally) for basement gigs or pretty much any time I encounter stairs.

Here she is in all her glory. I know more than a few folks are gonna give me the "Why, tho?" about having a bi amp rig. There's a reason to this madness: my pedal board. I'm running a clean line to the low side and overdrives and other effects to the high side, which allows me to use any old effect pedals instead of only bass-centric effects. I'm pretty much locked into this approach at this point.

Anyways... This thing is sometimes a little ridiculous for small rooms and I've been thinking for a long time of putting a compact version of it together. My thoughts:

Powered compact sub (something in the $800 range would be my budget)
~20 watt tube head (currently eyeballing an Ampeg PF-20t)
1x10 or 1x12 bass cabinet for the high side

So here's the questions:

- Does anyone have any suggestions on a compact powered sub? I was looking at a Mackie 115s, but it doesn't look very durable.

- What are some other options for 20 watt tube amps under $1000? I'd be open to guitar heads, too as I'm currently using a Mesa 2:Fifty power amp for the highs

- If you had a temporary lapse in judgement and tried to put together a rig like this, what are some things you'd consider that I haven't.

 

[JFlo]

I don't have any experience with powered cabs but the Bag End ones seem very nice. A low powered tube head under $1k is very doable, Ashdown or Frenzel would be great. I always advocate for putting your money into the best speakers you can first, then building out the rest of the rig. If I was building this rig I would start with a Barefaced 212BB . It is 1 cab with 2 chambers designed for biamping. I would skip the tube amp and get a Quilter Overdrive 200 or 201 for the highs and use whatever amp is handy for the lows. The Quilter sounds fantastic on its own or with pedals, is lightweight and has enough power to balance with the bass signal.

 

[WayneP]

I don’t see any reason to limit yourself to the low-powered Ampeg, when you can get any number of seriously powered mini-amps for less than its price. You can always turned a high-powered model down. If you’re big on tubes, you might check the Bugera Veyron amp.

Your sub budget puts you mostly in the territory of lower-tier brands. I don’t have experience with any active subs, so I can’t make a recommendation. However, something to keep in mind: The Macke and similar pieces might have a better chance to be a contender, if you consider that your personal equipment will probably be handled more carefully than what PA equipment typically is.

If you’re going to do this right, you really need an electronic crossover of some kind to get the best performance and deepest lows. Looking at a number of active subs in your price range, their crossover sections are “iffy” at best, and some don’t even have them. And they typically don’t have high-passed outputs to send to the mains, just a “through” that has the top speaker running full range.

Since you already have some “floor dwellers” (aka pedals), the compact Rolls SX 21 might fit the bill for you. Otherwise, your best bet is probably a rack unit. I got the best sound in my bi-amped system crossing at 125 Hz.

YMMV, but I got the best sound dividing the signal a half-octave or so above the main speaker’s port frequency. If you don’t know that that is (and most people don’t), you can guess by starting with the frequency knob at the lowest setting (the sub would be disconnected for this exercise). Playing your open E string, turn the knob until the low-end “bloom” fades out. Thus, everything below that point is send to the sub.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

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[Killing Floor]

You need one of those KITT from Knightrider rack tuners.

 

[Pulverizor]

Do you need/use that horn in your hi cab?

 

[Pontiac Thrasher]

Let me just preface that my current rig is huge. It's great for big stages and outdoor gigs, but it's a real pain (literally) for basement gigs or pretty much any time I encounter stairs.

View attachment 7012560
Here she is in all her glory. I know more than a few folks are gonna give me the "Why, tho?" about having a bi amp rig. There's a reason to this madness: my pedal board. I'm running a clean line to the low side and overdrives and other effects to the high side, which allows me to use any old effect pedals instead of only bass-centric effects. I'm pretty much locked into this approach at this point.

Anyways... This thing is sometimes a little ridiculous for small rooms and I've been thinking for a long time of putting a compact version of it together. My thoughts:

Powered compact sub (something in the $800 range would be my budget)
~20 watt tube head (currently eyeballing an Ampeg PF-20t)
1x10 or 1x12 bass cabinet for the high side

So here's the questions:

- Does anyone have any suggestions on a compact powered sub? I was looking at a Mackie 115s, but it doesn't look very durable.

- What are some other options for 20 watt tube amps under $1000? I'd be open to guitar heads, too as I'm currently using a Mesa 2:Fifty power amp for the highs

- If you had a temporary lapse in judgement and tried to put together a rig like this, what are some things you'd consider that I haven't.

This actually works great and you could get by with two Subway 210's. A true Biamp rig?

 

[yberwaffe]

A Source Audio EQ2 should work fine as a crossover.
I have not tried it myself but I see no reason why it should not work.

 

[FugaziBomb]

A Source Audio EQ2 should work fine as a crossover.
I have not tried it myself but I see no reason why it should not work.

I initially tried my set up with a cross over, but the balance never worked. When the lows would sound good, the highs would sound too thin with overdrive, but going the other way then the highs would sound full and the lows would be just rumble. I ended up using a dedicated high pass and low pass for each side with some overlap in the he 90hz - 120hz range and it finally nailed the sound I wanted.

 

[FugaziBomb]

Do you need/use that horn in your hi cab?

No, I have it turned off. I just love the way that Eden sounds in this role - as a mid driver. I also have Peavey and Hartke 10s that I swap out for variety from time to time, but the Eden is definitely my favorite.

I've often wondered if a sealed back guitar cab can do the trick as the mid driver, though. I've tried a couple of open back guitar cabs, but it was a little looser in response than I like.

 

[FugaziBomb]

Your sub budget puts you mostly in the territory of lower-tier brands.

My attitude towards the low side has been pretty casual. So long as it's loud enough and puts out lows, mission accomplished. The mid/high side is where I focus my energy on "tone chasing"

However, something to keep in mind: The Macke and similar pieces might have a better chance to be a contender, if you consider that your personal equipment will probably be handled more carefully than what PA equipment typically is.

This is a good point. I think I'm just used to the old JBL we had in one band I was in, which was a powered sub with rat fur lining that just felt indestructible. The Mackie looks like someone scaled up a subwoofer you'd have under your desk for your PC.

 

[OnlyFlats]

My personal solution was a Yamaha px8 power amp and 2x barefaced cabs. Out of your budget but I didn't get there over night, I bought 1 piece per year or two.

The goal for me was modularity and versatility. I will always tinker, and I play different projects and styles.

Px8 - has inbuilt crossover and filters; plenty power for my application (not outdoors). This allows me to use all my cabs in different combinations, including an old 18 passive JBL sub from an old cinema.

Barefaced - I needed light weight due to a medical issue. 2x Super Compact (1x with a horn). The quality of the cabs are so good that I can DJ through them. Playing full range music through cabs is very revealing.

So, what of this is relevant to you?

Comparatively, your powered sub and guitar head idea reduces flexibility.

The sub can only play lows. You can't adjust its onboard crossover or filter higher into low mids range (if you did, it would sound rubbish anyway). A really good quality BF cab (or alternative) could do both, especially relevant considering your into bi amping and not straight crossover rig. Plus powered subs are rarely fun to transport up down stairs. Not much size difference than your peavey.

Your guitar head can only be utilised for that 'mids and above' role. Your locked into it's tone. I feel like that side of your bi amp needs to be nailed EITHER by your pedals OR a specific amp head, not both, as it limits your rig flexibility. If you played directly into an Orange head with the lows crossed out from 300hz, ripping driven mids tone (backed with clean lows from the other side of the bi rig) then I'd get it. But if your using pedals for your driven tones, what's the point of the character amp? I figure the pedal board needs to be improved so a character amp isn't needed. Then you can utilise a side of a boring power amp and have only one amp head to carry.

I suggest you try using what you already have: 1x peavey and 1x Eden for cabs, and your crown power amp with your eq. Put that into your 8ru rack to trial. If you like it, start thinking about a replacement power amp with inbuilt filters etc, and shrinking the cabs.

OR

Commit to PA gear and get a powered sub with matching powered speaker on a pole. When they're matched the manufacturer typically nails the crossover between each cab, so if you get tinkering back into single channel but crossover option, you can.

I suggest that as I was once loving bi amping but I'm totally into a crossover system now just to maximise performance of my cabs. All my pedals don't cut lows so it's a single chain. My ehx tri parallel mixer isn't part of my pedalboard anymore.

Thanks for sharing your rig it's great I get it.

 

[klattman]

I used to work toward something like this then found that a dsm humboldt bass simplifier worked on my board and send the signal into a full range speaker/FOH. Now I use a crossover in the HX Stomp. This way I can put whatever after it and treat my lows and highs differently. Not the same as dedicated split speakers, but significantly compact and easy to get my sound with almost anything following.

 

[40Hz]

I’ve done biamping in the past. My SWR SM-400 head even has that capability, albeit in a very basic form, already built into it. Unfortunately, my judgement refuses to lapse when it comes to doing it again so I can’t be of much help. Because the advances in bass cabs and speakers that started sometime around the mid 90s has since made biamping unnecessary.

However, if you’re using modulation or time based effects I can see using a separate amp for a wet/dry setup.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

What frequency are you planning to crossover at?

 

[Alban]

Wouldn’t it be easier to use a small mixer or signal merger to blend the two signals together? And then send it to a high quality fullrange stack, like an EBS, Glockenklang, Vanderkley or similar.
This thread has some interesting ideas: https://www.talkbass.com/threads/cross-over-crossover-or-splitter-pedals.1416054/

 

[FugaziBomb]

However, if you’re using modulation or time based effects I can see using a separate amp for a wet/dry setup

This is a pretty big factor in the form of a delay pedal. Also, I'd like to use my same pedal board for either the big rig I currently have or the proposed compact rig, so I'm kinda locked into the approach. I also like being able to use any old guitar effects instead of being restricted to bass-centric products only.

What frequency are you planning to crossover at?

I'm using dedicated high passes and low passes for each side. The lows are passed at ~120hz and the highs at around ~90hz. I tried a simple crossover at first, but was never happy with the how one side sounded over the other. Having that overlap from ~90 to 120hz did the trick for me.

Wouldn’t it be easier to use a small mixer or signal merger to blend the two signals together? And then send it to a high quality fullrange stack, like an EBS, Glockenklang, Vanderkley or similar.

I used to do this, but then getting it to FOH became an issue. I couldn't just send a DI line because my OD/Dist was sounding really harsh, so I had them throw a 57 on my 8x10 to capture the OD and take a line out from the low side to compensate for the bass roll-off of the 57, but I also wasn't happy with that. The only thing that worked to my satisfaction was having dedicated, mic'd speakers for the highs/effects/overdrives and having a separate sub for the lows, which FOH could tap a line out of. One important thing to me was being able to get FOH signals from both sides that were isolated so the sound guy could mix to taste out front. I've come to love this set up so much that I really want to maintain the spirit of it while scaling down.

 

[Alban]

I used to do this, but then getting it to FOH became an issue. I couldn't just send a DI line because my OD/Dist was sounding really harsh, so I had them throw a 57 on my 8x10 to capture the OD and take a line out from the low side to compensate for the bass roll-off of the 57, but I also wasn't happy with that. The only thing that worked to my satisfaction was having dedicated, mic'd speakers for the highs/effects/overdrives and having a separate sub for the lows, which FOH could tap a line out of. One important thing to me was being able to get FOH signals from both sides that were isolated so the sound guy could mix to taste out front. I've come to love this set up so much that I really want to maintain the spirit of it while scaling down.

You could incorporate an IR pedal (something like Two Notes) in your overdrive signal chain then, that would solve the DI problem. Again, a small mixer would be good here; you could send separate direct outs of your two chains to FOH and send a combined signal to a stage amp.

 

[walterw]

There's a reason to this madness: my pedal board. I'm running a clean line to the low side and overdrives and other effects to the high side, which allows me to use any old effect pedals instead of only bass-centric effects. I'm pretty much locked into this approach at this point.

you could simplify the whole thing by skipping the crossovers or powered subs, using a normal bass rig with normal bass cabs for the clean side, eq-ed to be a bit darker and any horns turned off, then put a regular 50-100w single 12 solid state guitar combo amp on top to handle the overdrive and fx, with the guitar amp's low knob dialed back so as to not waste energy or risk damage trying to push bass guitar low end through a guitar speaker

think used peavey bandit 1x12 combo or something

you probably won't need that guitar amp to be very loud at all to get its overdrive/effected sound to blend into the overall bass sound

 

[Medicine Man]

Hi, my name is eric and it's been 12 years since I biamped. At first, I just wanted clean bass with lush, warm overdriven highs. Before i knew it, i was hanging out in dark alleys behind the venue trying to get strangers to help me move hundreds of pounds of equipment through the kitchen back door. I was spending more on tubes than I was on food. But by grace and the quality engineering of modern bass cabinets I was able to quit my obsession with biamping and finally embrace pedalboard parallel signals. I may not have the same sound, but it's an honest tone that cuts through the mix without sacrificing my health anymore. Thanks for listening.

 

[FugaziBomb]

you could simplify the whole thing by skipping the crossovers or powered subs, using a normal bass rig with normal bass cabs for the clean side, eq-ed to be a bit darker and any horns turned off, then put a regular 50-100w single 12 solid state guitar combo amp on top to handle the overdrive and fx, with the guitar amp's low knob dialed back so as to not waste energy or risk damage trying to push bass guitar low end through a guitar speaker

think used peavey bandit 1x12 combo or something

you probably won't need that guitar amp to be very loud at all to get its overdrive/effected sound to blend into the overall bass sound

I actually do this on the rare occasion I lug my pedal board to a jam. It's not a bad solution, but I'd be lying if I said I don't get something out of having an esoteric set up.