Help me setup my Funk Machine!

[Simon Ferocious]

Hi Talkbass,
I've acquired a bass to be my funk machine, in other words, to wear thick Labella's and be used for vintage stuff, not limited to motown. I've always done my own setups and enjoy the process, not only on bass but guitars too.

Anyway, I've had trouble with this bass, which is a Momose MPB1, so alder wood and everything is pretty vintage except that it has an extra fret at the end of the fretboard.
So my issue is that the low E buzzes somewhere, and I'm thinking it could be this extra fret as the sound is coming from somewhere around there.

When I first put the Labella 1954 JJ's on, the neck immidiately bowed and the action went from 2mm to about 5. I've straightened the neck so have minimal relief, but with that setup, I cannot get the strings to 2mm without a lot of fretbuzz on the low E, so I've tried going the other way and giving it plenty of relief just like Jamerson liked it, and now it is the G that's giving me trouble, I can not get it lower than 1.6mm and the frets are unplayble past the 15th fret, some notes don't sound at all, some sound like the previous fret, so again, I'm worrying it's that extra fret as it seems it has a high fret at the end. So I straightened my neck and raised the strings, but I should still be able to set the G to about 1.7mm and have it play well. In fact, everything i've read indicates that the bass should play well even with the thick labellas at around 2mm on the E. I know it is low action, and I would not want it lower than that, but I'm worried if this bass has issues. It is mainly the E giving my buzzish trouble. If I play lightly it doesn't buzz but I'd have to control my playing way too much.

So what specs should I be aiming for? My neck relief is around .012, and the E is at 2.5mm, A at 1.9mm, D at 1.8mm and the G is at 1.7mm and cannot go any lower due to saddle.
here's the bass:
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bridge setup
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action height for E
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shot of the neck curve
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and the look of the neck with the extra fret
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[primusfan1989]

Id be willing to bet this instrument has frets that aren't level. Its possible that the neck might be warped but it seems you have enough ability to identify that issue if that was the case.

 

[Simon Ferocious]

I got the bass brand new in the summer, and it has been wearing LaBella flats for about 7 months. I don't think the neck is warped but I do think having the extra fret can be bad for the curve of the neck, if it has too much relief the extra fret will just make it worse as the ski jump is extended by a fret.

It had no issues when I got it and I doubt a Momose would have bad fretwork, I'll check using the 3 fret rocking method

 

[Lownote38]

I got the bass brand new in the summer, and it has been wearing LaBella flats for about 7 months. I don't think the neck is warped but I do think having the extra fret can be bad for the curve of the neck, if it has too much relief the extra fret will just make it worse as the ski jump is extended by a fret.

It had no issues when I got it and I doubt a Momose would have bad fretwork, I'll check using the 3 fret rocking method

Any bass can experience fret lift where they become unseated. That causes an issue with the height. Also, any bass can end up with a ski jump. Being new doesn't make it impervious to either of these things. Regardless, to really get the Funk Machine sound (James Jamerson), higher action is the way to go. it's how Jamerson had his bass. You should also experiment with a mute at the bridge. He used that, too, and it's a part of that sound.

 

[Simon Ferocious]

Thank you, I do have the mute on the cover, I just took it off to adjust the action. How high should I aim for? I know its up to me what's comfortable, my limit is probably 3mm.
I guess James had his even higher my theory is he just put on the heavy labellas and didn't adjust anything

 

[Turnaround]

I'm suspicious of a ski jump. Capo the first fret and fret the E string at the 17th fret. Measure the point where there is the greatest amount of relief. Then while the capo is still on, fret at the last fret and find the amount of relief at the same fret as the previous test. If there is a significant difference in the relief measurements you likely have a ski jump. The best work around for an instrument with a ski jump is to reduce the amount of relief and increase the saddle height. But be careful not to introduce an S-curve.

 

[BassCajon]

Man it's never easy to get that neck curve shot but it kinda looks like some back bow from here. Especially under that kinda tension. Maybe a high fret too here.
Heres what I'd do.
Remove the neck, remove the truss rod nut, lightly grease the truss rod nut threads and reinstall it.
then the neck gets clamped face down and straightened using a Jenga block under the first and last fret then squeeze a (padded) cam clamp in the middle of the curve, forcing it straight, or little past straight.
While the neck is clamped like this, you tighten the rod until you think it offers good support for those strings. The grease on those threads and the clamp giving that neck the extra movement should give you more adjustment. In a way it resets the truss rod inside the neck especially if the wood has warped. Then, release the clamp, bolt on the neck and string it up.

Next I'd lower the pickup down to adjust later, and raise the bridge saddle height so the strings are more (or a hair past) parallel with the frets, then find that buzzing fret and whack it down with a dead blow hammer and a jenga block as a setter. *Remember to support the neck directly under where the impact will be with a sandbag to absorb the impact. This is very important.

After fixing the buzzing the best i can with a few careful whacks, I add small amounts of relief to the neck as necessary.
Then I plug in and set the pickup height. Usually by ear.

Hope this helps a bit

 

[Grinderman]

I'm wondering just how close the bridge saddles are to the deck or plate and the relationship between the bridge and the neck at the 21st fret, along the Y axis, on this setup.

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I just set up a new P bass, including LaBella DTF 760M '54 Original strings, last night and had to resolve the same or similar issue.

The cause and solution in my case was about how the neck stacked up in the pocket. It was just a tiny bit too low relative to the deck and the bridge, a function of depth of neck pocket combined with the front-to-back thickness of the neck at the heel.

I flat-shimmed the neck up a smidge in the pocket in such a way that mainly raises the neck higher in relationship to bridge; a 60mm square piece of maple veneer, 0.6mm thick.

After that, I could easily dial in the neck relief and string action down to as low as 1mm (Correction: 1.5mm or 5/64", sorry for typo error) on the E string at the 12th fret, without any fretting problems all the way up the neck.

 

[Simon Ferocious]

interesting, thanks. I checked and the saddles are about midway for the a and d and quite low for e and g but still some amount if i wanted to lower them, but i've set the saddles low at the moment so I wouldn't lower them any further. I straightened the neck a little bit, which lowered the action and although it's low it's playing fine through the amp. Sounding deep and thumpy, and was a pure pleasure to play!

 

[primusfan1989]

I doubt a Momose would have bad fretwork,

Im not familiar with "Momose", however Ive personally done fretwork to brand new Fender custom shop pieces ($2500+ usd...not cheap instruments) you would think those instrument would have impeccable fret work...alas that is not the case.

 

[Grinderman]

interesting, thanks. I checked and the saddles are about midway for the a and d and quite low for e and g but still some amount if i wanted to lower them, but i've set the saddles low at the moment so I wouldn't lower them any further. I straightened the neck a little bit, which lowered the action and although it's low it's playing fine through the amp. Sounding deep and thumpy, and was a pure pleasure to play!

I wonder how close any of the intonation screws may be from touching the base plate there.

Before I flat shimmed this neck, the ends of these intonation screws on the E and G could touch the bridge base plate while the string action height was up at almost 3mm at the 12th fret.

This is after I flat shimmed.

This is with a brand new quarter sawn maple neck with 7-1/4"R slab rosewood from Musikraft. I leveled and dressed the frets, rolled the edges, did a bit of profile adjustment, lacquered the maple, shaped and slotted the bone nut from a blank and set the whole thing up.

 

[Grinderman]

Im not familiar with "Momose", however Ive personally done fretwork to brand new Fender custom shop pieces ($2500+ usd...not cheap instruments) you would think those instrument would have impeccable fret work...alas that is not the case.

A Japanese maker. Their new P basses go for around 200,000 yen or U.S. $1,500. From appearances and being made in Japan I reckon they're pretty well made.

 

[BassCajon]

This is after I flat shimmed.
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Nice. So you raised the saddles after this and it played well, yes?

And the witness point on that E string is hurting my brain this morning.

 

[Simon Ferocious]

Momose is a very popular brand in japan, their stuff is custom shop quality but modern production, not necessarily copies of fender. They're known for having perfect fretwork and finishing without imperfections.

Anyway, I also had some trouble with the E intonation and had it even more back, so that the normal string winding wasn't sitting on the saddle but that odd looking wrap just before it, I felt it wouldn't make the best sound like that, so I moved the E saddle forward just until the string was sitting on the saddle.
What is the concesus here? Should the saddle be moved back even if it means the string wrap will sit on the saddle? What about it the string has silk at the ball end, the saddle should be making contact with the metal part of the string, not the silk?

 

[Grinderman]

Nice. So you raised the saddles after this and it played well, yes?

And the witness point on that E string is hurting my brain this morning.

There were four simultaneous aspects of the problem, initially. Tips of intonations screws were bottoming out on the base plate because E and G saddles were so low while, second issue, the string action was still much too high, measuring from the 12th fret. Third aspect, the stings were buzzing on the 20th fret while fretting positions down the neck, below the 12th. Fourth aspect, everywhere between the 16th fret and the 20th fret either buzzed or was simply unplayable.

The Y axis relationship between the neck or top of the frets and bridge had to brought into better alignment.

Had I known at the time I'd post here about it I might have photo-documented with a side shot including the heal of the neck and the bridge with a steel ruler sitting on top of the apogee of the frets and projecting back to the bridge to help illustrate the problem.

 

[Grinderman]

Momose is a very popular brand in japan, their stuff is custom shop quality but modern production, not necessarily copies of fender. They're known for having perfect fretwork and finishing without imperfections.

Anyway, I also had some trouble with the E intonation and had it even more back, so that the normal string winding wasn't sitting on the saddle but that odd looking wrap just before it, I felt it wouldn't make the best sound like that, so I moved the E saddle forward just until the string was sitting on the saddle.
What is the concesus here? Should the saddle be moved back even if it means the string wrap will sit on the saddle? What about it the string has silk at the ball end, the saddle should be making contact with the metal part of the string, not the silk?

Given such heavy or thick string cores and the way the wrapped ends are on these strings, without silk cover, they appear to be in a rough state but that doesn't matter. What matters is that the strings aren't twisted, the break angles of the strings over the saddles are proper and the strings are intonated; either they are or they aren't.

Metal on metal is best. Where there are silk ends, I believe it's best if the silk parts aren't bedded over top of the saddles. I prefer to trim back the silk ends where they might otherwise touch the saddles.

I would not sacrifice best intonation. If necessary, I'd sooner pull off the bridge, dowel-plug the mounting holes in the body and re-drill the screw holes to reposition the bridge assembly further forward 3mm to 5mm.

 

[Grinderman]

Correction.

Given such heavy or thick string cores and the way the wrapped ends are on these strings, without silk cover, they appear to be in a rough state but that doesn't matter. What matters is that the strings aren't twisted, the break angles of the strings over the saddles are proper and the strings are intonated; either they are or they aren't.

Metal on metal is best. Where there are silk ends, I believe it's best if the silk parts aren't bedded over top of the saddles. I prefer to trim back the silk ends where they might otherwise touch the saddles.

I would not sacrifice best intonation. If necessary, I'd sooner pull off the bridge, dowel-plug the mounting holes in the body and re-drill the screw holes to reposition the bridge assembly further forward 3mm to 5mm.

Back, not forward.