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Help me understand the current state of the short / medium scale flatwound string market

basslust

basslust

Apr 18, 2011
700
460
Massachusetts
#1
As I've made several posts around the site about recently, I have been looking for higher tension flats for my Mustang Bass. It currently has the La Bella Mustang Flats (760F-MUS), which are pretty good, but do not handle detuning even a half step very well (I play with a pick a lot and need some tension, and have recently found myself playing amongst horns). That led to me looking for alternatives, and here's where I started to get frustrated.

It has been a few years since I have been in the bass scene, but as of around 2015, standard advice for short-scale basses was to thicken up your strings and use flats. So, imagine my surprise when in 2024, the majority of strings on the market for short and medium scale basses are light gauge. Furthermore, the most common short scale bass on the market is the Fender Mustang Bass, and that bass has a string thru body which requires at least 33" between ball and winding. However, many short scale strings, including ones released in the last couple of years (looking at you, Ernie Ball) only have 32.5" between ball and winding. Clearly there is no problem with short scale strings being 33" between ball and winding, as that's what the DR strings are. Make it make sense.

This turned out to be a bit of a rant, but I just can't fathom how any of this came to be. I should be able to buy a heavy gauge flatwound string for the most popular short scale bass of today. The fact that it doesn't exist is just maddening. If there's some reason that I'm missing for why the market is the way that it is today, please let me know.
 
#2
May I suggest the GHS Brite Flats as a possible alternative to the "heavy flatwound set for the thru-body Mustang"?

They're Alloy 52 (nickel-iron) half-rounds/groundwound, not a true flatwound, but their tonal character is more flatwound than roundwound. They're also stiffer than typical hex-core rounds and do come in a heavier set (49-62-84-108) than most short/medium scale sets. And they do come in "medium scale" with 35.5" winding length (ball end to taper/silk).

SETS - MEDIUM SCALE BRITE FLATS™

Again, just a suggestion...
 
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#3
michael_t said:
May I suggest the GHS Brite Flats as a possible alternative to the "heavy flatwound set for the thru-body Mustang"?

They're Alloy 52 (nickel-iron) half-rounds/groundwound, not a true flatwound, but their tonal character is more flatwound than roundwound. They're also stiffer than typical hex-core rounds and do come in a heavier set (49-62-84-108) than most short/medium scale sets. And they do come in "medium scale" with 35.5" winding length (ball end to taper/silk).

SETS - MEDIUM SCALE BRITE FLATS™

Again, just a suggestion...
Click to expand...
I did see those and am considering them. My hesitation is in the flexibility of the strings -- do you know if groundwounds are stiff like flatwounds or more flexible like roundwounds?
 
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#5
Heavier gauge strings on a short scale bass will always be a compromise. They generally sound very poor above the 5th-6th fret on the E-string, dull tone and weird "out of tune" harmonics. That's just the laws of physics. I'm guessing this is the reason why most string manufacturers only offer lighter gauge short scale strings these days. I totally agree that most available short scale strings are too light/floppy though. At least for my playing style. The best compromise for me is around 45-105 with rounds and 40-100 with flats. Any lighter than that and I get problems with severe fret buzz, unless I only play very softly. These are the same gauges I prefer on long scale basses. This obviously means they will be lower tension than on a long scale bass but that's the compromise I have to make. If I go heavier the tone starts to suffer. Some strings are stiffer, and work better on short scale basses, than others though, even though the gauges are the same and the tension isn't necessarily higher.

If you're detuning it get even worse of course.

Maybe D'Addario Chromes could work? I find these stings too stiff/inarticulate on long scale basses but this stiffness can actually be an advantage on a short scale bass. I don't like the tone of D'Addario Chromes very much. They're far too bright/clanky out of the box for my taste, and unlike most flats they don't age gracefully. They just go rather dull over time. But I still use them as "last resort" strings on short scale basses that need that extra stiffness to avoid fret buzz, no matter how well the frets are leveled (this often happens on poorly made, cheap basses). I have no idea how these strings respond to detuning though. Probably not great... And I'm not sure I would use them on a bass with through-body stringing. It MIGHT be fine, but that's something I wouldn't personally do with flats (with a couple of exceptions but these are all more flexible types of flats, which isn't what you need).

If you don't need flats, GHS Boomers are available in rather heavy short scale gauges. Personally I found them useless, very poor tone in higher frets on the lower strings IMO, but maybe they can work with detuning?
 
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#6
It's a condundrum with these string through basses to find appropriate winding length strings in heavier gauges for downtuning, which I presume is Eb in this case. Buying a medium scale 5 string set and setting aside the E string is an option. Take Dunlop Flats DBFS45125M 45-125 set for example.
Eb1/.125
Ab1/.085
Db2/.065
Gb2/.045
Obviously losing some tension on the AbDbGb, but they are higher tension than E typically anyway, partic D and G. But gaining the all important tension in the lowest string. And there is no prob using a 125 as Eb except widening nut a little
STAINLESS STEEL FLATWOUND MEDIUM SCALE BASS STRINGS 45-125 | 5-STRING

I know La Bella doesn't recommend putting their DTF on via string through unless designed specifically to do so and S.F.Sorrow raises the issue of possible problems putting less than flexible flats string thru. I guess if you steered cleared of it, than already paltry options would be even more so with flatwounds
 
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#9
Prodigus Filius said:
@HaphAsSard
I'm sure you can ferret out other 5 string medium scale flatwound sets you can set aside the E with. Or medium scale flatwound singles. Or even medium scale flatwound 4 string sets with heavier gauges, partic E
Click to expand...
Medium-scale, non-roundwound, 5-string bass string set options I'm aware of
(some you've already mentioned - I'm copypasting an old post of mine):


- Dunlop flatwounds (DBFS40120M and DBFS45125M)

- the La Bella Deep Talkin' Bass flatwound medium scale 5-string set (760FS-B-M) was discontinued (the short-scale one, 760FS-B-S survives)

- medium-scale is a normal ordering option for a number of Galli sets including the Jazz Flat JF45130
(but, lamentably, not the Black Nylon Tape Wound G77-5, which, TWIMC, is available as a shorty set though) from their website.

- the Pyramid Gold flatwound 640/5
- and/or the Pyramid tapewound 648/5
may, or may not, be custom-ordered in medium-scale version, by using the ad-hoc online form on their website, or contacting them (auf Englisch is fine) via email. The lowest string could be tweaked, if need be: their largest gauge flatwounds come in 110, 115, 120, 124, 126.


Fin. (AFAIK.)
 
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#10
Deleted member 271037 said:
Heavier gauge strings on a short scale bass will always be a compromise. They generally sound very poor above the 5th-6th fret on the E-string, dull tone and weird "out of tune" harmonics. That's just the laws of physics. I'm guessing this is the reason why most string manufacturers only offer lighter gauge short scale strings these days.
Click to expand...

Thanks for this. You led me down a rabbit hole here. I found an older TB post where the following is given as an explanation for "the inharmonicity of a string" (from Wikipedia):

"The inharmonicity of a string depends on its physical characteristics, such as tension, stiffness, and length. For instance, a stiff string under low tension (such as those found in the bass notes of small upright pianos) exhibits a high degree of inharmonicity, while a thinner string under higher tension (such as a treble string in a piano) or a more flexible string (such as a gut or nylon string used on a guitar or harp) will exhibit less inharmonicity. A wound string generally exhibits less inharmonicity than the equivalent solid string, and for that reason wound strings are often preferred."​

So, this seems to be the explanation for the weird overtones you mention with regard to the E string on short scale basses. And it seems that the ways to combat this include using thinner strings, roundwound strings, and/or more flexible strings.

This got me looking at the thickest short scale strings on the market, and I see that Ernie Ball has two sets of short scale flats that are 50 - 110: Cobalt and Series 1. They are unfortunately 0.5" too short for Mustang Basses, but at least this seems to indicate that the heavy gauge E string for these two sets has been found to be within tolerances for short scale usage by Ernie Ball. I do see a lot of reports of people using the long scale version of these strings on short scale basses, so I'm considering doing this at least as a temporary measure until I can get my hands on some of the rarer options that I'm seeing like the Galli strings.
 
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#11
basslust said:
Thanks for this. You led me down a rabbit hole here. I found an older TB post where the following is given as an explanation for "the inharmonicity of a string" (from Wikipedia):

"The inharmonicity of a string depends on its physical characteristics, such as tension, stiffness, and length. For instance, a stiff string under low tension (such as those found in the bass notes of small upright pianos) exhibits a high degree of inharmonicity, while a thinner string under higher tension (such as a treble string in a piano) or a more flexible string (such as a gut or nylon string used on a guitar or harp) will exhibit less inharmonicity. A wound string generally exhibits less inharmonicity than the equivalent solid string, and for that reason wound strings are often preferred."​

So, this seems to be the explanation for the weird overtones you mention with regard to the E string on short scale basses. And it seems that the ways to combat this include using thinner strings, roundwound strings, and/or more flexible strings.

This got me looking at the thickest short scale strings on the market, and I see that Ernie Ball has two sets of short scale flats that are 50 - 110: Cobalt and Series 1. They are unfortunately 0.5" too short for Mustang Basses, but at least this seems to indicate that the heavy gauge E string for these two sets has been found to be within tolerances for short scale usage by Ernie Ball. I do see a lot of reports of people using the long scale version of these strings on short scale basses, so I'm considering doing this at least as a temporary measure until I can get my hands on some of the rarer options that I'm seeing like the Galli strings.
Click to expand...
This thread is quite illuminating on this inharmonicity business. https://www.talkbass.com/threads/string-inharmonicity-vs-material.1456239/
If you want more tension for downtuning, you will have to up the gauge. Unavoidable. Trade offs. At what specific gauge inharmonicity may eventuate, and string construction features that may lessen or increase the occurence of it is a million dollar question. I guess it is one of the reasons manufacturers tend the biggest readily available gauge of strings for E1 to 110 to avoid the tendency.
 
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#12
I'm also a pick player and use LaBella LTFs on my string thru Mustang. I'll tune down to drop D with no issue. Other than the DTF Mustang set, LaBella does make a DTF 45-105 set for medium scale. But I'm not sure that's enough of a tension upgrade for you. It's too bad they don't make the 49-109 set in a medium scale. They sound great in D on my toploader Reverend Watt.
 
#14
I don't know how you set up your basses, but you can change the perceived tension (change how the strings feel to your hands, not change the actual tension) by adjusting neck relief. I currently have a couple short scale basses, and I've had a couple others in the past. All were notorious for their truss rod being able to flatten the neck easily. I've had a CIJ Mustang for a long time, and it's easy to get the neck totally flat which makes it play quite easy, but difficult to not experience string rattle. I have a medium gauge , long scale set of chromes on it now and it plays well.

I also have a set of the short scale EB Cobalt flats .050-.110 you mentioned, but those are on an Ibanez Mikro I bought recently that has almost no neck relief and the truss rod is totally loose. They are great strings so far, but as you have found, won't fit a Mustang, however I've had long scale EB cobalt flats on my Mustang in the past and had no problem. They would probably work for you.
 
#16
Prodigus Filius said:
basslust said:
Thanks for this. You led me down a rabbit hole here. I found an older TB post where the following is given as an explanation for "the inharmonicity of a string" (from Wikipedia):

"The inharmonicity of a string depends on its physical characteristics, such as tension, stiffness, and length. For instance, a stiff string under low tension (such as those found in the bass notes of small upright pianos) exhibits a high degree of inharmonicity, while a thinner string under higher tension (such as a treble string in a piano) or a more flexible string (such as a gut or nylon string used on a guitar or harp) will exhibit less inharmonicity. A wound string generally exhibits less inharmonicity than the equivalent solid string, and for that reason wound strings are often preferred."​

So, this seems to be the explanation for the weird overtones you mention with regard to the E string on short scale basses. And it seems that the ways to combat this include using thinner strings, roundwound strings, and/or more flexible strings.

This got me looking at the thickest short scale strings on the market, and I see that Ernie Ball has two sets of short scale flats that are 50 - 110: Cobalt and Series 1. They are unfortunately 0.5" too short for Mustang Basses, but at least this seems to indicate that the heavy gauge E string for these two sets has been found to be within tolerances for short scale usage by Ernie Ball. I do see a lot of reports of people using the long scale version of these strings on short scale basses, so I'm considering doing this at least as a temporary measure until I can get my hands on some of the rarer options that I'm seeing like the Galli strings.
Click to expand...
This thread is quite illuminating on this inharmonicity business. https://www.talkbass.com/threads/string-inharmonicity-vs-material.1456239/
If you want more tension for downtuning, you will have to up the gauge. Unavoidable. Trade offs. At what specific gauge inharmonicity may eventuate, and string construction features that may lessen or increase the occurence of it is a million dollar question. I guess it is one of the reasons manufacturers tend the biggest readily available gauge of strings for E1 to 110 to avoid the tendency.
Click to expand...
An inharmonic component is always present: how audible it is, there's the rub. It depends on stiffness and how it interacts with tension and scale, not only in the sense of, let's call it "maximal" scale (bridge saddle to nut), but also temporary vibrating length. In other words, the degree of inharmonicity is not the same throughout the board: it gets worse the higher up (= treblewise, not in terms of distance from the floor of course) the neck you go. This can be easily verified: take the longest, Dingwallest bass you have, with the thinnest low E you're still comfortable playing, and its 24th fret E will always sound a little chorusy even if, to your ear, its open E is perfectly fine.
In other words, inharmonicity is a problem inasmuch as it gets audibly nasty in an area of the board (from the 12th fret up? from the 10th? 8th? 6th?) that the player tends to play in.
If having a modicum of tension proper/stiffness/resistance to the plucking hand (not solvable by playing closer to the bridge because of ergonomy or tone preferences) trumps inharmonicity, or better yet if one is able to restrict their playing in an area of the board outside the chorusy area, going up in tension is indeed the answer.
Or, it *would* be, were it not for tone reasons: stiffness, whether due to construction or high gauge, interferes with the string's ability to subdivide in shorter fuses -> to produce higher harmonics, which is also not uniform a phenomenon, but one that depends on where one frets the string (compounded with the concomitant relative shift of the pickup position).
In other words, yeah: tradeoffs. But a string built to be more flexible greatly helps.
 
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#17
At least for medium scale strings: abysmal. I am switching over to 32-inch scale basses because of old hand injuries coming back to haunt me. The selection is abysmal. So I can use long-scale strings, I found a left-handed in-line neck so the E string doesn't bind.

Short scale strings are a horn-o-plenty compared to medium scale strings.
 
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#18
If the E post was really the only thing to worry bout with big gauge flatwounds vis a vis non taper around the post, you could do a reverse headstock and use long scale strings. But some argue the big gauge and less flexible flats might also be a problem at the string through end though.
 
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#20
Prodigus Filius said:
If the E post was really the only thing to worry bout with big gauge flatwounds vis a vis non taper around the post, you could do a reverse headstock and use long scale strings. But some argue the big gauge and less flexible flats might also be a problem at the string through end though.
Click to expand...
Yes. This is what I'm doing with a mid-scale build in process. I found a left-handed mid-scale neck. My luthier is adding the side dots to make it right-hand-reverse. This way I can use thicker strings to downtune to Eb, with only the taper or silk around the E string tuner, on the request of our lead singer, for the annual reunion/getaway/river cabin trip with the guys from a prior band. We went to grad school together, had a band with local success 30+ years ago, and we still have fun together. Yeah, we're getting older. Our lead singer wants it down, my hand doesn't like Fender standard scale anymore, and so forth. And to repeat, yes, we still have fun together.
 
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