Help me understand this mentality

[noahw1]

Ghosting = cowardice. People are so used to communicating via texts or emails that they now treat people and responsibility like that. Louie CK has a great bit about people being able to be so mean to each other online or via text because they don’t see the other persons reaction of hurt and pain.
Read T Bone Burnett’s address he just gave at SXSW.

 

[40Hz]

Really, I think the reason the student asked for the reference is because you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. It's either don't ask and don't get a reference, or ask and maybe there's a small chance that he'll get a reference based on the good things he's done.

That has got to be one of the most unintentionally funny bits of convoluted rationale I’ve ever heard.

Is that really what you think that other person was thinking? Sounds like a riff on the “rationale” behind the old “it’s easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission” argument.

 

[bdplaid]

I, too, taught at the college level and my take is that in the end, it's just one person avoiding responsibility. I also believe that the younger generations get away with murder compared us old fart baby boomers, but I've seen too many young people step up and behave normally - meaning deal with problems - when they arise. Who knows, parenting, generational thing, mental distress, internet... Could be anything but I'd write it off to one individual being a putz.

Having said that, you reminded me of one of my students who actually started a mild face to face confrontation with me, then a year later asked me for a recommendation. No, she didn't get it, and I didn't worry about it.

And having said that, I have musician friends my own age who "ghost" from time to time. One guy - an MD/PhD/PhD who had a very successful practice - is well known for his style as being radio silent even when the spit is hitting the spam and people need information. Another close friend simply goes quiet when his answer will be in the negative - I have come to realize he just doesn't have it in him to deal with such stuff.

But I have long thought that musicians generally can't deal with conflict, and avoid it in myriad ways.

 

[filmtex]

Back in my day....we just let the machine get the call, then never called back. “You called me? Sorry, I never got the message. Stupid answering machine.”

 

[Stumbo]

Maybe they just decided they didn't like you. Ever think of that?

Or maybe bad breath?

 

[ForestFriend]

That has got to be one of the most unintentionally funny bits of convoluted rationale I’ve ever heard.

Is that really what you think that other person was thinking? Sounds like a riff on the “rationale” behind the old “it’s easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission” argument.

It think it's a reasonable theory; I fail to see what's so far-fetched or humorous about it. He probably knew that he screwed up big time, had no good excuse for it (well, maybe anxiety... but admitting that can make one anxious), but he also had nothing to lose by asking for a reference. Probably egged on by mom or dad too (who may or may not have gotten a completely different story on the whole ordeal).

 

[denhou1974]

Spineless way of quitting something. Simple.

 

[Rojd]

Maybe some of these people ghosting were raised by helicopter parents who guided every facet of their lives, shielding and protecting from them from being uncomfortable, leaving them unable to deal with adversity.

 

[40Hz]

It think it's a reasonable theory; I fail to see what's so far-fetched or humorous about it. He probably knew that he screwed up big time, had no good excuse for it (well, maybe anxiety... but admitting that can make one anxious), but he also had nothing to lose by asking for a reference. Probably egged on by mom or dad too (who may or may not have gotten a completely different story on the whole ordeal).

My comment wasn’t directed at you as a criticism. I find it “funny” in the eyeroll rather than “haha” sense. And I wasn’t trying to imply that I thought your post far fetched at all. I’m inclined to think you are all too accurate in your analysis. By characterizing it as being “convoluted rational” I meant that if that other person believed or was thinking that when they asked for a recommendation, then it was their rationale was laughable and convoluted - not your analysis of it.

Hope that clarifies.

 

[Cliff Colton]

Maybe Alexis didn’t inform the student president that he had emails and unread text messages. If that’s the case, then you might consider giving him the recommendation letter based upon his positive qualities. Otherwise it looks like vengeful abuse of power and self-righteous moralistic teaching which isn’t your job.

Your job is to find a new student president and to make sure this doesn’t happen again. I’ve never been to a school where the student president disappeared and nobody knew where he was, so if this happens again I can’t help you.

 

[40Hz]

I observe it mostly in younger people but also increasingly in adults

Got that right. I loaned out a pedal as a favor to someone at TB way back last July. I wasn’t selling it. They were curious about it, so the deal was try mine out and return afterwards. I even shipped it out on my own dime. Friends helping friends and all that.

Time passed.

Then I politely requested it be sent back this January since I now needed to loan it to a cousin who wanted to use it for his own recording project in February. There were a few apologies and promises to send it back in January. Then…nada, as in absolutely nothing. Complete radio silence since the end of January.

Sent a few messages in February explaining my increasingly urgent need to get it back and asking for an update on what was happening. My final message was sent Feb 24th. And I received no reply to any of them. And we’re now at the end of April. Very frustrating.

One more bit of aggravation (and apparently a $200 pedal) to chalk up to experience.

Guess I got ghosted.

 

[Hambone70]

Cowardice.

 

[twinjet]

I was wondering if people would help me understand this mentality. This was inspired by a thread going that contained a passing comment about a drummer who was recording an album and then just stopped answering texts email and phone calls-- leaving the album unfinished and the band wondering, and finally, folding.

This is the mentality I don't get -- and I've seen it multiple times

1. A student of mine accepted the position of President of a student organization. He functioned for about 6 months, and then stopped answering all phone calls, texts and emails from myself (his adviser/mentor), and the dedicated, top notch students on his executive team. We eventually removed him as president after several months of silence. We advised him after suitable warnings via email and text to look for the email about his assumed resignation. He did not respond to phone messages. No response to text or email either.

About three months later, he called me out of the blue, mentioned nothing about his radio silence, and then asked me for a reference for his resume.

When I asked him about the lack of communication after accepting such a high profile position, he didn't have an answer I could quote. It was general whitewash. There was no emergency, nothing, just a request for a reference. When I indicated I couldn't give a reference due to the way he abandoned a high profile, professional position, he argued the point, indicating I knew about his other quality work and leadership in classes and could recommend on that. I held my ground and indicated that his abandonment of his position, without communication or reasonable explanation made it impossible for me to be a positive reference. I also indicated I was surprised he was asking me for a reference after that. It was a polite conversation, but one that floored me.

2. I spent about 2 hours helping a social media consultant with questions about how to break into my profession, and gave her an opportunity to speak to my class and get some classroom experience. She took the help and opportunities.

As apparent reciprocation, she agreed to help me promote a project involving social media (Today's Jazz Book). We had two phone meetings, and made mutual assignments. She didn't show up for the third meeting, and has simply stopped answering phone and texts. I know she's getting them, as they aren't coming back undeliverable, but she has simply chosen not to respond.

A. If anyone has done this -- simply stopped communicating with otherwise reasonable people who have made a joint commitment to a project, musical or otherwise, I am willing to listen, without criticism. I want to understand the thought processes involved in simply stopping all communication when a commitment has been made.

B. Also, is there anything others can do to pre-empt this kind of response to a project when you sign on to a commitment of some kind, musical, or otherwise, to prevent this kind of hard landing to a project?

I see this as a younger generation thing, as both were in their mid to late 20's. I don't see it from older people unless there is a technology hiccup, lost phone, deleted email account, viruses, lost phone contact lists or other valid reasons.

Help to understand the thought process is welcome. I have trouble fathoming it.

Late twenties here. You're clearly dealing with ****heads. That's absolutely unacceptable.

 

[2F/2F]

I see this as a younger generation thing, as both were in their mid to late 20's. I don't see it from older people unless there is a technology hiccup, lost phone, deleted email account, viruses, lost phone contact lists or other valid reasons.

I agree with your post, except for this statement. It is an issue of professionalism and respect, and it is there across all generations IME. I too despise some of the informality of today's youth, but I also know some very professional, respectful, and unreasonably talented young people, who I have the pleasure of working with...while there are equally as many older folks in my field who are some of the least respectful people I have ever met. IMO, each generation has their god and their bad.

 

[teh-slb]

I was wondering if people would help me understand this mentality.

You mentioned that you have seen this multiple times. Are these isolated cases, i.e. do you have many other students who do not behave this way? If not, the system that you're involved in could be a contributing factor, as some already mentioned. From personal (albeit non-musical) experience: I'm in a sports club that has a problem with senior members leaving because of overbearing leaders. Those who were open to discussing the reasons for their departure had those reasons quickly dismissed, so others just don't bother saying anything any longer and just mail their contract cancellation notice after not training for a while. It isn't "nice", but I understand and, to an extent, support their "ghosting". There is no point getting stressed over unreasonable people, which the core running the show in the club I'm in pretty much are. They're also certainly not the only gig in the city.

I hope I don't come off as accusatory and I realize that a sports club has a far lesser impact on an individual's life than an educational institution. I just wanted to give a slightly different point of view.

(Edited for grammatical mistakes.)

 

[equill]

I've been around enough blocks to recognise at least two separate issues here, and neither of them are younger-generation things.

The first two, the drummer and the student, both sound like they got overwhelmed beyond their ability to cope with the situation at all. The pattern I recognise here is somebody suddenly realising they're already in so far over their heads, or the psychological weight (as felt from the inside, before any kids-these-days types start yelling again) that they have no idea how to cope with it. Some freeze, as in the fight, flight or freeze thing, others don't know how to climb back down and feel that the shame of disappearing is preferable to the stress of facing up to the people that they're letting down. In the latter case, yes, they often know what doors they're closing, but as far as they're concerned it's now a question of how those doors are slammed on them, not whether.
I've seen this in normal, healthy people who simply didn't have the experience to know how big the thing would seem when they got there, but particularly in people with an anxiety disorder. If your baseline is somewhere between anxious and freaking out simply because your brain chemistry is out of whack for genetic reasons, getting overwhelmed is a regular fact of life.

The part about coming back and asking for a reference could be a few things, but mostly sounds like a critical lack of self-awareness - particularly common in easily-outraged old white men, but seen in all demographics.

The social media consultant could be a bunch of things: flake, got fired, lost interest and wandered off, personal crisis, or health emergency. Hell, she's a young woman - the chances are uncomfortably high that she's recovering from being raped.

I get (and believe me, have gotten) the frustration when somebody just stops responding, but the upshot is that there's a range of possible reasons, only one of which is the one you're implying: a deliberate, considered decision to walk away and cut ties.
So the best I can offer there is the suggestion to change tone when trying to re-establish contact, assume that there's a very real crisis on their end, and ask what you can do to help. Even if they're just being a flake, it's probably your best chance of getting clues about what's actually going on there. If you have acquaintances in common, try asking them what's wrong, instead of going direct to the person in question - if the person has a history of being a flake, common acquaintances are more likely to tell you that outright. Or, if it was something you said or did, they're also more likely to tell you than the person themself.


Ways of pre-empting this kind of thing? There isn't a silver bullet. You can learn to spot signs that somebody's likely to be less reliable than you need - mostly through painful experience, unfortunately. You can learn to ask questions that tell you how they've delivered (or not) in similar situations, which can also be a useful gauge.
You could find a way to "subtly" mention that somebody already let you down on a similar project, and lament that if they'd only reached out and told you what they were dealing with, you could have found a way to work around it, or at least know that you needed to go ahead and find somebody else - then, if some crisis blows up, there's a better-than-even chance that they'll take the chance of facing your wrath. Then it's on you to take a deep breath and not visit your wrath on them, to cultivate trust in them and in people they tell about how that situation worked out. Or they might not, but it does improve the odds.

The general issue here is that you've run into a Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, and you want to know what state of mind produced that.
It's a regular enough problem among the software developers in the company I work for, that we added "seek first to understand" to the existing set of company values. With large, long-lived codebases, it's common for people to see a section of code for the first time and think, "what kind of lunatic thought that was a good approach to this problem?! Holy cow, what a mess!" and the answer is often that it was actually a reasonable choice under the circumstances - it's just that you get further by asking the perpetrator what the circumstances were, than by venting at them.
Vent away if you need to, just not in a direction that's going to make it harder to resolve the problem at hand.


That was a mite longer than I thought it was going to be; apparently I had more on the subject than I realised at first.

 

[Jazz Ad]

It's a protection and coping mechanism that works really well, although very destructive for social relationships and career.
I will write this as shortly and clearly as possible so people who are foreign to it can understand how it works.

If I am overwhelemed by a situation, the only way for my mind not to explode is to remove myself from the universe within which it occurs.
Cutting all communications is a part of this process. If I don't do it, my mind shatters so violently that it feels like a a drill digging into my head.
I'm then not able to eat, sleep or clearly think at all.

People in a situation of unbearable stress who are not able to either manage it or remove themselves early enough, they fall straight into a burn out, with even worse consequences.
Does it make any sense?

 

[Jazz Ad]

I'm done reading all the comments.
It is NOT news, NOT cowardice, NOT a young people thing, NOT a product of the digital era.

At best, the modern obsession for isolation and personal spaces made it easier to achieve.
The concept that one should always face responsibilities leads to this kind of behavior.

 

[glocke1]

I was wondering if people would help me understand this mentality. This was inspired by a thread going that contained a passing comment about a drummer who was recording an album and then just stopped answering texts email and phone calls-- leaving the album unfinished and the band wondering, and finally, folding.

This is the mentality I don't get -- and I've seen it multiple times

1. A student of mine accepted the position of President of a student organization. He functioned for about 6 months, and then stopped answering all phone calls, texts and emails from myself (his adviser/mentor), and the dedicated, top notch students on his executive team. We eventually removed him as president after several months of silence. We advised him after suitable warnings via email and text to look for the email about his assumed resignation. He did not respond to phone messages. No response to text or email either.

About three months later, he called me out of the blue, mentioned nothing about his radio silence, and then asked me for a reference for his resume.

When I asked him about the lack of communication after accepting such a high profile position, he didn't have an answer I could quote. It was general whitewash. There was no emergency, nothing, just a request for a reference. When I indicated I couldn't give a reference due to the way he abandoned a high profile, professional position, he argued the point, indicating I knew about his other quality work and leadership in classes and could recommend on that. I held my ground and indicated that his abandonment of his position, without communication or reasonable explanation made it impossible for me to be a positive reference. I also indicated I was surprised he was asking me for a reference after that. It was a polite conversation, but one that floored me.

2. I spent about 2 hours helping a social media consultant with questions about how to break into my profession, and gave her an opportunity to speak to my class and get some classroom experience. She took the help and opportunities.

As apparent reciprocation, she agreed to help me promote a project involving social media (Today's Jazz Book). We had two phone meetings, and made mutual assignments. She didn't show up for the third meeting, and has simply stopped answering phone and texts. I know she's getting them, as they aren't coming back undeliverable, but she has simply chosen not to respond.

A. If anyone has done this -- simply stopped communicating with otherwise reasonable people who have made a joint commitment to a project, musical or otherwise, I am willing to listen, without criticism. I want to understand the thought processes involved in simply stopping all communication when a commitment has been made.

B. Also, is there anything others can do to pre-empt this kind of response to a project when you sign on to a commitment of some kind, musical, or otherwise, to prevent this kind of hard landing to a project?

I see this as a younger generation thing, as both were in their mid to late 20's. I don't see it from older people unless there is a technology hiccup, lost phone, deleted email account, viruses, lost phone contact lists or other valid reasons.

Help to understand the thought process is welcome. I have trouble fathoming it.

Flakes are going to flake.

I think sometimes people just realize they don't want to be in a situation, and instead of doing the right thing and talking to someone about it, they just go radio silent because they don't know how to handle confronting someone about it,

 

[Nev375]

I'm currently in the process of ghosting a guitar player I met toward the end of last year. I don't know what else to do.

The guy is in his early 50's and I think started to learn how to play at one point then gave it up and is now starting again. Either way, he can't play.
He sends me text messages on facebook every time he listens to a song when he gets drunk and wants to know if I like each one. Literally a new text every 4 minutes for a couple to 4 hours.
Each time we have jammed he asks if he did ok after every song or lick he played. He is constantly seeking my approval and acts devastated if I say anything even slightly critical.
If I don't reply to his texts within 5 to 10 minutes he usually sends something like "You don't like me do you. I'm sorry I'll stop bothering you."
He has told me he is in bad health and probably will kill himself if things get worse. I get the impression he is on the verge of it anyway.

He's a sad emotional minefield and I really don't want to be the trigger that sets him off, nor do I want to be anyone's mommy.
What would you do?