Help me understand this mentality

[db59]

I was wondering if people would help me understand this mentality. This was inspired by a thread going that contained a passing comment about a drummer who was recording an album and then just stopped answering texts email and phone calls-- leaving the album unfinished and the band wondering, and finally, folding.

This is the mentality I don't get -- and I've seen it multiple times

1. A student of mine accepted the position of President of a student organization. He functioned for about 6 months, and then stopped answering all phone calls, texts and emails from myself (his adviser/mentor), and the dedicated, top notch students on his executive team. We eventually removed him as president after several months of silence. We advised him after suitable warnings via email and text to look for the email about his assumed resignation. He did not respond to phone messages. No response to text or email either.

About three months later, he called me out of the blue, mentioned nothing about his radio silence, and then asked me for a reference for his resume.

When I asked him about the lack of communication after accepting such a high profile position, he didn't have an answer I could quote. It was general whitewash. There was no emergency, nothing, just a request for a reference. When I indicated I couldn't give a reference due to the way he abandoned a high profile, professional position, he argued the point, indicating I knew about his other quality work and leadership in classes and could recommend on that. I held my ground and indicated that his abandonment of his position, without communication or reasonable explanation made it impossible for me to be a positive reference. I also indicated I was surprised he was asking me for a reference after that. It was a polite conversation, but one that floored me.

2. I spent about 2 hours helping a social media consultant with questions about how to break into my profession, and gave her an opportunity to speak to my class and get some classroom experience. She took the help and opportunities.

As apparent reciprocation, she agreed to help me promote a project involving social media (Today's Jazz Book). We had two phone meetings, and made mutual assignments. She didn't show up for the third meeting, and has simply stopped answering phone and texts. I know she's getting them, as they aren't coming back undeliverable, but she has simply chosen not to respond.

A. If anyone has done this -- simply stopped communicating with otherwise reasonable people who have made a joint commitment to a project, musical or otherwise, I am willing to listen, without criticism. I want to understand the thought processes involved in simply stopping all communication when a commitment has been made.

B. Also, is there anything others can do to pre-empt this kind of response to a project when you sign on to a commitment of some kind, musical, or otherwise, to prevent this kind of hard landing to a project?

I see this as a younger generation thing, as both were in their mid to late 20's. I don't see it from older people unless there is a technology hiccup, lost phone, deleted email account, viruses, lost phone contact lists or other valid reasons.

Help to understand the thought process is welcome. I have trouble fathoming it.

.....absolutely relevant to me NOW!!!!......2 guitarists....one planning on getting gigs......the other recorded stuff
with.........now crickets......its just rude..........weirdos

 

[Stewie]

Had a great trio going, Guitar/lead vocal said he needed a month off for personal reasons (hetold us what they were). After a month, we tried to reach him, he went ghost. Cost us a month. He didn't ask for a reference though.

 

[diegom]

Passive-aggression has become more prevalent lately...
"You can achieve whatever you want!", as opposed to "You can achieve whatever you put your mind and efforts to accomplish!".
So, many people just do as much as they feel comfortable doing, and then they just pull back. "You're not my [mother, father, boss, wife]!!!", "I don't have to give you any reasons for my decisions or my actions because they are mine!"

In the meantime, you are expecting them to do WHAT THEY AGREED TO DO IN THE FIRST PLACE, but they don't feel like it. Therefore, ignoring you is the best way to get you to go away... BUT, I know where to find you where I need something...

I'm sure you can tell I have quite a bit of experience with this... I just move on to the next thing and write these people off just the same way they wrote me off by ignoring me...

Confrontation! That's so 20th century!!!

 

[6Bass101]

Can anyone explain the follow-up mentality of asking for a reference after ghosting me and the entire organization he was supposed to be leading in Case #1 above? Is ghosting simply considered standard practice?

I can see it as an outgrowth of online interaction. For example, on Talkbass, all you have to do is ignore someone. Same on social media, just block their account -- end of the problem with no confrontation. That seems like a reasonable explanation -- misplacement of online interaction with arms-length relationships to face to face, more personal relationships.

I don't look at it as geezers beating up on the old generation though -- I view it as geezers trying to understand the underlying reasoning. It can help mitigate harsh judgments.

I think the ghosting and the asking for a reference after making a poor impression are two separate issues. I don't have much to say about the the first issue as I think some people will do that, others won't.
As for the second issue, I've seen it happen a lot over the years. Folks of all ages/generations. Folks that were chronically late or absent from work, or even fired for poor performance asking for a reference for their potential next job. One lady (an older lady) felt that the manager that fired her "owed" her the reference since it was his fault she was out of work.
I've also seen folks ask for a reference of some one they bearly worked with and whom would not even know them well enough to speak to their abilities and work habits.

 

[Keger Jupit]

t's called "ghosting" and it seems to be SOP for younger folks who don't know how to deal with conflict since they've been raised online, where you can just log off and ignore what ever poop-storm you started.

^^ 110% ^^ Absolutely! Some kids are raised not to do this, some aren't. That's why I don't partake in social media. You can be anything & say anything, with ZERO consequences.

I hate throwing millennials under the bus, however. They are quite simply products of the environment they were raised in. My kids did not get phones until they could pay for them, & the plan that comes with it, on their own (as a small example). Most of their friends had phones, & you could easily tell whose parents took an active role, & whose didn't.

I know many younger kids who are as bright, smart, engaged, & driven as my generation was (Gen Xer). They have just been raised in a completely different...well, country to be honest. It's unfortunate that kids can't start working as young as I did (12), because then, a lot of times, unsupervised electronics escapades become the babysitter.

...OK, mini-rant over...

 

[Stumbo]

Maybe they just decided they didn't like you. Ever think of that?

Maybe. But why ask for a or expect a reference from the person you ghosted?

 

[mattj1stc]

I believe it’s called ghosting - I’ve even seen people do this in a professional workplace setting. It does seem to be a younger person thing - something about avoiding uncomfortable situations, not sure.

I have ghosted people, but only when the connection or relationship had ended but the other person wanted to persist or restart and I did not. I can only think of twice ever, and it was when things had concluded. Basically avoiding a stalker. Otherwise, I find this extremely strange.

 

[five7]

Simple, lack of integrity.

 

[Fishface]

I don’t think you’re going to get an answer here from people who practice this behavior, since it’s too much work or risk to chime in. Is that irony?

Regarding how he could expect a good reference... cognitive dissonance. Or, disconnect between actions and consequences.

I’m sure you already know these things because you always have good posts and responses, but it’s still bewildering. I don’t understand it either.

 

[Jon McBass]

Maybe they just decided they didn't like you. Ever think of that?

That's a great, trolly thing to add to the conversation. How much thought went into that?

 

[kentiki]

Who cares what you think. It's all about me. Why should I be inconvenienced.

At least that's how I see it.

 

[Jon McBass]

Help to understand the thought process is welcome. I have trouble fathoming it.

I'm not sure I can help understand this phenomenon because I don't get it myself. I just hate it. All I can say is that over the last couple of years "ghosting" has become maddeningly popular, like it must be a really cool thing to do. I observe it mostly in younger people but also increasingly in adults. Maybe it's avoidance of discomfort, but if I were ignoring people who were repeatedly trying to reach me about a commitment I'd blown off it would be a source of greater anxiety than just simply talking with them would be.

I think the reason the student asked you for a reference is that he doesn't have any idea in the world that there's anything wrong with ghosting--it's an accepted part of interpersonal communication in his world. Like you would turn off a computer game when you got bored with it. Computers don't care. It's a digital world now.

To me, it starts from the top: We see our elected leaders and people on TV being rude, dishonest and disrespectful in ways that would have been unimaginable not long ago. It has become normalized. And so that example works its way down through society to the point where it's SOP to be rude and disrespectful--maybe even cool.

Ghosting is a cultural "thing." Like what? Memes? Snap streaks? Following? Friending? Everyone from contractors I'm trying to schedule renovation work with, to venue managers I'm discussing events with, to pro audio companies I'm trying to rent equipment from, to even fellow musicians ignore me. I visited the owner of a new club a couple of months ago and we had a great talk. He said he would email me about particulars and I gave him my card. Nothing. I followed up, submitting their online form and leaving a couple of voice messages; nothing. People in my band have had that happen with other clubs and agents. "Oh great, yeah! For sure, let's get together and discuss this! Call me!" Then crickets. This is the new normal with clubs apparently.

My daughter and granddaughter chalk their ghosting up to "I'm just so busy," "so much going on," "I'm stressed," etc. Anyway, it doesn't surprise me any more but does bother me. It's simple disrespect, and I guess our culture has devolved to that point.

Back to your question: No way in hell would I provide references to these people. More and more I deal with ghosting by simply emailing or texting a final, "Please do me the courtesy of letting me know one way or the other." If there is still no reply they are written off, unless they eventually let me know they had something dire going on and are sorry. I'd say, get used to it but don't enable it.

 

[jthisdell]

Who cares what you think. It's all about me. Why should I be inconvenienced.

At least that's how I see it.

You are totally wrong, it's all about me.

 

[bobalu]

I don’t think it’s always a calculated tactic to go silent. I think it’s often times plain and simple apathy, a product of the social media generation(s) [hinted at by other postings here] - and upbringing. Apparently there just isn’t any value placed on “responsibility” anymore. A lack of consequence? Maybe mom or dad always bailed them out and they never had to deal with having to be responsible, I don’t know. I don’t paint all millennials with the same brush though as it’s unfair and untrue. I do however always seem to trace a strong character with good principles back to sound parenting, regardless of the generation.

Just my 2 cent observations here based on my life experience. Peace and music.

 

[Ellery]

I was wondering if people would help me understand this mentality. This was inspired by a thread going that contained a passing comment about a drummer who was recording an album and then just stopped answering texts email and phone calls-- leaving the album unfinished and the band wondering, and finally, folding.

This is the mentality I don't get -- and I've seen it multiple times

1. A student of mine accepted the position of President of a student organization. He functioned for about 6 months, and then stopped answering all phone calls, texts and emails from myself (his adviser/mentor), and the dedicated, top notch students on his executive team. We eventually removed him as president after several months of silence. We advised him after suitable warnings via email and text to look for the email about his assumed resignation. He did not respond to phone messages. No response to text or email either.

About three months later, he called me out of the blue, mentioned nothing about his radio silence, and then asked me for a reference for his resume.

When I asked him about the lack of communication after accepting such a high profile position, he didn't have an answer I could quote. It was general whitewash. There was no emergency, nothing, just a request for a reference. When I indicated I couldn't give a reference due to the way he abandoned a high profile, professional position, he argued the point, indicating I knew about his other quality work and leadership in classes and could recommend on that. I held my ground and indicated that his abandonment of his position, without communication or reasonable explanation made it impossible for me to be a positive reference. I also indicated I was surprised he was asking me for a reference after that. It was a polite conversation, but one that floored me.

2. I spent about 2 hours helping a social media consultant with questions about how to break into my profession, and gave her an opportunity to speak to my class and get some classroom experience. She took the help and opportunities.

As apparent reciprocation, she agreed to help me promote a project involving social media (Today's Jazz Book). We had two phone meetings, and made mutual assignments. She didn't show up for the third meeting, and has simply stopped answering phone and texts. I know she's getting them, as they aren't coming back undeliverable, but she has simply chosen not to respond.

A. If anyone has done this -- simply stopped communicating with otherwise reasonable people who have made a joint commitment to a project, musical or otherwise, I am willing to listen, without criticism. I want to understand the thought processes involved in simply stopping all communication when a commitment has been made.

B. Also, is there anything others can do to pre-empt this kind of response to a project when you sign on to a commitment of some kind, musical, or otherwise, to prevent this kind of hard landing to a project?

I see this as a younger generation thing, as both were in their mid to late 20's. I don't see it from older people unless there is a technology hiccup, lost phone, deleted email account, viruses, lost phone contact lists or other valid reasons.

Help to understand the thought process is welcome. I have trouble fathoming it.

People are afforded a sense of anonymity in social media and can carry this feeling on to the real world. If they simply ghost you, they never need to face the embarrassment of violating their commitments. It's like you no longer exist. (Unless of course they need a reference).

 

[socialleper]

I think its called ghosting, and it isn't new. I think we just notice it more because there are so many ways to stay connected that it seems weird when you can't reach someone.
When I was younger I would try to stay in touch with ex coworkers, but they'd just stop returning my calls.
I think maybe it us just endemic of our disposable society. Companies don't care about their employees or customers. Schools don't care about their students or teachers. It is just general apathy.

 

[Killed_by_Death]

This sort of thing drove me mad in the Land of Smiles, where losing face is a thing.
Instead of owning up to a lack of progress or unavailability, you get the ghosting & lack of response.

How ironic when I finally got tired of working with people in that environment & came home, only to find out it's like that here at home now as well.
Maddening!

 

[jhm2112]

It’s not just young people doing this. A member of the band I play in has a tendency to flake out on us with no explanation whatsoever. He’s 61. It’s not complete radio silence because he eventually shows up at the studio, but you get what I mean.

 

[ForestFriend]

I think the reason the student asked you for a reference is that he doesn't have any idea in the world that there's anything wrong with ghosting--it's an accepted part of interpersonal communication in his world. Like you would turn off a computer game when you got bored with it. Computers don't care. It's a digital world now.

How the heck could people think ghosting is an okay thing? Yes, it's something that happens and sometimes you just have to move on instead of worrying about it, but those are things you tell yourself when you get ghosted, not the other way around. I've mostly heard of ghosting in the context of online dating; of course it's not as courteous as saying "I don't think we're compatible", but it's not the worst thing in the world. But you'd do it under the assumption that you've burned that bridge. You don't want to see that person again, and chances are they won't want to see you again either after you ghost them. You don't ghost someone and then message them half a year later asking if they'll take you out for dinner.

I'm a millennial and I really just don't understand how there could be nothing wrong with ghosting. There's no way young people could completely lack the ability to put themselves in someone else's shoes. They know full well that getting ghosted is annoying... and you're not going to gain favors from anyone by annoying them. Really, I think the reason the student asked for the reference is because you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. It's either don't ask and don't get a reference, or ask and maybe there's a small chance that he'll get a reference based on the good things he's done.

 

[40Hz]

I suspect ghosting is the natural consequence of an increasing number of people not understanding (or simply choosing not to understand) that reality doesn't have a “new game” button.