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Help me with improvisation !!!

#21
I would say that that is not true at all. A chordal approach to other types of music isn't uncommon. However, it was stated that in rock one can use the scale approach (running scales/riffs/solos or entire songs based on scales) while in jazz scales arent mandatory and can take away from the musical features of jazz. With jazz (save avant-garde/free jazz, but even then...) I found that the use of such chordal approaches is ideal as the notes you use (how ever many you chose) should be of high quality within the respective setting in order to express whatever you wish. Now I'm not saying that you have to play certain notes in certain settings (hell, i've only been playing jazz for about 2 months now with a combo and i often throw in whatever notes are convenient), but if you try to think of scales that work with chords, then you will end up playing through the scale, and no matter in what jumbled order, it usually doesnt sound that great and can quickly become stale. The reason you can play notes not in the chord (the triad or chords with more notes) is to add colour to the chord and for convenience...but also because there are some other chords which work with the one you are using which sound good, and sometimes these notes fall within those other chords. This is a simple example as I have absolutely no previous theory education, myself...this is just what I get from listening to jazz and playing with songs (w/ lead sheets of course ;) ). Anyway, I hope this clears some things up, but I'm sure the more advanced players and musicians can ellaborate or correct me.

This has been a simple answer to your question............and now for something completely different...
 
#22
Oh about sight reading...not really necessary unless in a big band (i have fortunately skipped that step :p and went right to a combo) but it is key that you can at least figure out what notes there are in notation in treble or bass clef. THis is just to give you some clue as to what is being played or for some intro licks and stuff. As for the learning of jazz...please use tab only to find arpegio positions, otherwise its useless if you dont know what key your playing and which notes of the chord. What came to me naturally after i just jumped into playing was locating notes on the fretboard in different places (comes with practice) and i knew the relative places of notes within the major chord (and with minors and altered, etc you just need to know which are flatted or sharpened). With this you can pretty much play on any chord as long as you know which of the notes in the scale to play (and if they are sharpened/flatted). THis is what i generally do for walking lines. I dont sight read (i can read the notes, but it takes me a while) so i just rely on chord symbols (they are the key to rhythm jazz). I also use other notes around the ones im using in order to make licks or lead ins or just to add a few quick muted notes. I really wouldnt worry too much about always playing the correct notes if you practice by yourself. Just know the chord changes (at least the root) and just play some notes that you feel are in that chords or related to them (you can always play the root or 3rd or 5th or 7th more often to keep yourself in key when youre learning). Otherwise just try to play, if you mess up dont worry, just play to different songs (standards you might find). You can find lead sheets online a lot, or buy a fake/real book. once you start playing randomly to songs a bunch of times over, you'll get a feel for it and see what works best. This may not be good for everyone but it worked for me and I'm actually now able to write much better rock songs (metal, anything technical, or simple classic-style rock) as i have a feel for the music and can just go with those feelings when writing a song. Just play...actually thats the moto at www.jazzsoloist.com They have opinions on soloing for some standards (easy and difficult)...take a look there for a bit of theory and some chords for tunes.

Hope this helps anyone :hmm:
 
#23
Originally posted by marcusmiller
QUOTE : "Yes, we're dealing with the same notes, but it sounds a lot different when you apply it chordally. Running patterns up and down the D dorian scale on a Dm7 works in a rock/pop setting,"

So u mean in a pop/rock setting this approach (chordal one) doesnt work ???

So i we play Beatles - etc standard hotel covers but CANT i add some jazzy flavour in my solos and
some walkin bass lines ?
Is Jazz music (in terms of theory) really too separated from popular music ?
Click to expand...

Hey Marcus!

Actually, the chordal approach works beautifully in just about any style, it's just that the scalar rock approach doesn't work in jazz. So yes, you can play your Beatles tunes and throw in a nice jazzy lick here and there - but make it tasteful!

Ed Friedland is a smokin' player, and his books are pretty good too.

But you should skip the tab and learn to read standard notation. Yes, it will take more time, but it is well worth it. And whether you plan on playing jazz or not, you should still learn jazz theory, because you will be able to play just about anything if you understand that.

As for playing chord notes, yes, it's based off of hitting the triads and extensions. You can also use approach notes, which are just above and below the target note, to jazz up the sound. But the basic idea is that you learn some real jazz licks and what chords they work on to get you started (some licks work on several chords). Playing lines based on the chordal (arpeggio) notes as opposed to scales will really open up your ears to a lot of exciting new possibilities. It will be like a whole new beginning for you! And yes, forget the scales. You'll never get anywhere with them...
 
#24
For exemple when you listen to Led Zeppelin
you get a millions of ideas for minor pentatonic scales.
As for diggin in Mixolydian , major pentatonic , naturel minor , major scale Which stuff should i listen to ?
Click to expand...

You'll find all the scales you mentioned above in Zeppelin tunes.. and them some :)
 
#25
Originally posted by lowerclef
I'm actually making this really complicated. The basic idea is that you learn some stock jazz riffs and what kinds of chords you can use them on, and build from there.
Click to expand...

I agree with most of what you said, but the last thing I want to learn is "stock jazz phrases", ya dig?
 
#27
LOL! Yeah, I dig, but this guy's just getting started in jazz, and one must start somewhere, no?
Click to expand...

I'm just getting started in jazz myself, I'm working my way through a few Aebersold books... learning the songs and trying to create smooth walking lines etc, would you recommend working on a bunch of "jazzy phrases" from a book?
 
#28
Originally posted by Howard K
I'm just getting started in jazz myself, I'm working my way through a few Aebersold books... learning the songs and trying to create smooth walking lines etc, would you recommend working on a bunch of "jazzy phrases" from a book?
Click to expand...

As you know I have had lots of Jazz lessons from various tutors (Jazz pros) across the UK.

There is actually, quite a split on this. So some tutors have recommended learning some licks to use in solos and have actually handed out sheets of them.

But they have also made it clear it is part of the learning process. So it's in the context of - have a look at these, try playing them in every key, see how they're made up - analyse them. Then make up some of your own - see how you can make them sound 'Bluesy' or Jazzy by your note choices etc. etc.

Other tutors have explained how to use "patterns" in solos - how this can be particularly useful in modal tunes or parts of tunes where the harmony is fairly static - so you can add interest by creating patterns and shifting them about.

I suppose the thing is to see all these things as a means to and end and not as an end in itself... :hmm:

Mostly these ideas apply to soloing - but you could use these concepts to create ostinato bass lines - say for tunes in odd time signatures?
 
#29
hi
my old nickname is marcusmiller
i am the one who started this thread.
but i ad to change my nickname due to some
connection problems...to the site...

Anyway I AM SHOCKED WHEN I READ :
"FORGET ALL THE SCALES.u DONT NEED THEM IN ANY MUSIC " kind of statement.
so why then all the books i have teach the scales as well ? All the schools also ... ??
doesnt all the harmony and theory depend on it ?
Like constructing chord progressions from scale notes etc...( HARMONY)
Is this CHORDAL approach (which seems also a like a great idea) it just some kind of - laziness or short way to the real situtations- kind of approach ?
 
#30
QUOTE : "(some licks work on several chords). "

You mean several chord progressions ?
Of just a few chords ?

Is it considered academic way of learning as well
(the chordal approach) Just curious...Or is it just one of the approaches....? Or is it just the ONLY BEST WAY ??? Because everybody here seem to mean : CHORDAL APPROACH IS THE ONLY AND BEST WAY.
am i wrong ?
 
#32
Originally posted by MMFender
Can i use any approach note near the targeted chord note ? Or are there really rules for it ?

I know it will sound funny but when i play
chromatic notes (without knowing what the hell i am doing) it works really cool. it sounds kinda like jazz.Or my ears are wrong ...???
Click to expand...

As they say...there are no wrong notes...just wrong resolutions. Yes, you can play whatever approach notes you want, but if it fits into the scale or better yet the chord that its approaching...or both the leading and following chords...it just sounds a bit better placed. I also play chromatics as leadins a lot and it works a lot. As for harmonies based of scales...that is true, the harmonies are based off the scales meaning that any scale notes should work...but if you were to play the scales through the progression...on some chords some notes are very weak while they might be very important on others. This is were you should put your focus on the chord notes during the progression. Out-of-scale notes can be used to add some degrees of tension or just make it sound cool in some cases...some licks work over chords while containing non-scale notes. I really dont know why you would want to "forget" the scales because if you do...how do you figure out the notes of the chord? That beats me, but you should focus on the chord notes on the chord, and then the scale notes you choose have different effects on different chords within the key. If you play a simple 12 bar blues (try freddie freeloader if ya want), you can see that you can play the scale all you want (bflat major) but if you play the fourth (Eb) over the Bb chord it doesnt have a good effect unless resolving to a chord note (F or D or Ab), but played over Eb it is needed. This is basic stuff really, but hopefully it clears some stuff up.

Colin
 
#33
Oh, and the academic way is to learn scale-chord relationships. This chordal learning thing is something that people pick up naturally as they play...look at billy sheehan (different music using scales, but bare with me) he figured out tons of musical theory just by playing (having no clue still what all of it is called, making him seem a bit dumb :) ) so when he says he knows only 2 scales and the modes and doesnt know what a diatonic or chromatic scale is...that doesnt mean he doesnt use them. Plus, people here just want to stress that if you run through the scale that works...it doesnt sound jazzy..you can use the scale notes (and non scale notes) just as long as they are stressed or down-played in the appropriate manner. You wouldn't see John Coltrane go up and down chords and scales just to land heavily on the fourth of the chord...that just wouldnt sound good..most of his best improv licks came from excellent note to chord from scale placement. Listen to some stuff off of miles davis' kind of blue (coltrane solos) or coltrane's blue train for some really recognizable great licks and solos to see how some strong notes can make a huge difference between some random playing and a great solo.
 
#34
Originally posted by MMFender

Anyway I AM SHOCKED WHEN I READ :
"FORGET ALL THE SCALES.u DONT NEED THEM IN ANY MUSIC " kind of statement.
so why then all the books i have teach the scales as well ? All the schools also ... ??
doesnt all the harmony and theory depend on it ?
Like constructing chord progressions from scale notes etc...( HARMONY)
Is this CHORDAL approach (which seems also a like a great idea) it just some kind of - laziness or short way to the real situtations- kind of approach ?
Click to expand...

You originally started this post asking about how to improvise better, correct? The main point I was trying to drive home is that if you learn a bunch of scales to improvise, you will not only be totally lost and confused when it comes time to play on a real tune, you will sound like someone playing a bunch of scales. That's not a good thing, by the way.

As stated in my earlier posts, if you play lines that are centered around the chord tones, you will sound way hipper and more melodic. Take my advice and get Jazz Improv For Bass and Pro's Jazz Phrases from www.carolkaye.com. There are lots of phrases to practice in there as well as an explanation of where and how they can be used.

Yes, it's okay if you're just learning music theory to find out how scales and chords are constructed, but don't dwell on it past that. Just forget it. You don't need to know the 6th mode of the Super Locrian scale in all positions, for example. You can learn every mode of every scale in history and it won't bring you any closer to being a good improviser.

The chordal approach is not a short-cut - there is still plenty of practicing that needs to be done on your part. If anything, the chord scale method is a "long-cut" that leads nowhere. I did it for years and it never made me a better player. But my playing got measurably better studying this method after only a couple of months, and continues to grow each week. I'm just trying to save you years of frustration, thinking that you'll never be able to improvise well because it's all so complicated. You can, if you do learn the right way.
 
#37
Originally posted by marcusmiller
So you mean this chordal approach is not Just for Jazz music. It can be applied to any style ?
Click to expand...

Just about. Put it this way: it works a lot better than trying to put other styles into jazz. Your ear is the ultimate judge, not every lick works in every style. But you can make your rock and funk playing very hip by throwing in some jazz riffs here and there.

The real benefit here is that by learning chordal patterns and how they function over certain chords, you're getting your ear training together. Learning to hear chords and chordal patterns is way better for your ear than hearing scales. Bass is a remarkably easy instrument to transpose on; you just move your hand to a different spot on the neck and play the same lick, and Voila! you've got it.

Jazz harmony is usually based off of iim7/V7/I progressions that cycle through a bunch of different keys. If you can learn to play well through a given ii/V, you can play through all of them just by shifting your patterns around. And then soloing over rock or funk tunes with only 3-4 diatonic chords in them becomes a piece of cake, because once you really learn some useful patterns, all you have to remember is where your starting note is and your hands will take off and do the rest. And it will sound terrific. No kidding!
 
#38
waow
i am so excited now !
Would u mind to tell me where i can find some
free patterns ? Or can u write some down for me ?
I live in Turkey so i CANT WAIT TOO LONG for orders ! :D
i am so excited ! =)
I got JACO PASTORIUS licks book do u think i can get some ideas from him ?
But what he does seems so advanced to me.
 
#39
I mean i cant wait for my book to come (from carolkaye.com) i will order soon.
But i cant read notation fast enough =(
Jaco book is great but too advanced for me to get into.
--So these patterns consist of playing the chord notes and plus some passing notes that go well
with the context but which arent actually included in the chord itself ??? (i got it right ? )
-- These patterns can also be added to other music styles but not TOO much ? right ?
just for some jazzy taste...
-- I know the shapes of all the modes in one position. But i realised that D Dorian also is the extension of C Ionian. So i can find the extensions of the scales this way as well ??
 
#40
Yeah, that's the basic idea. Then you learn about chord substitutions, where you can take the same lick and make it sound different by playing it over different chords.

As for the Jaco stuff, he had a lot of arpeggios in his solos, so you'll start to develop some of that sound by working with this method.

And yes, the patterns work great in other styles for soloing! And by playing the patters, you are automatically hitting the cool tensions in the chord; they're usually part of the licks.

A couple of samples for you, using a Dm7 chord:

E D C# D G F E F B A G# A D C B C A

DC#D FEF AG#A CBC E D A F E D

It's hard to do this without notation, but play a Dm7 on a piano and try those notes over it.
 

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