Help Please / Thundercat - Apocalypse

[Bass'd on a true story]

Hey, I just saw Thundercat live like two weeks ago and he completely blew my mind. He has the chops of Hadrien Feraud and the evil genius of some kind of Coltrane/Mingus fusion. That being said I am having trouble even understanding his album.

I'm trying to learn the songs off of Apocalypse and his other single "Them Changes" as well, but these compositions are leaving my theory knowledge in the dust. Particularly on "Them Changes", while I figured out the root notes fairly quickly, I can't break it down into what key it's in and my ear is totally failing to help me just solo over it on instinct.

Them Changes

The root notes of the bassline are B, G, Ab, F, Eb. That's as far as I can solidly get.




This is his full album





This is an amazing 17 year old kid improving over and grooving over "Them Changes", but he's playing so fast that I can't even figure out what he's doing. Shout out to this young man. He seriously has all the chops without losing any of the feel.

 

[Bob_Ross]

these compositions are leaving my theory knowledge in the dust. Particularly on "Them Changes", while I figured out the root notes fairly quickly, I can't break it down into what key it's in

As your theory knowledge expands you'll eventually learn that not all music is "in" a particular key, nor does it always conform to traditional methods of harmonic analysis; there are other theories (sic) of tonal and/or intervallic organization that can lend a piece of music a structural unity that go beyond keys and chord-scales.

One way to look at "Them Changes" is to not worry about what key(s) or scale(s) the chords are derived from, but rather to examine the interval content and/or motifs created by the chord sequence. B, G, Ab, F, Eb could describe a process of shrinking, or of reciprocal growth. Consider:

The interval from B to G is four semitones; let's call that "Big" since it's the largest root motion of the sequence. The interval from G to Ab is only one semitone; since that's not only the smallest root motion of the sequence but also the smallest possible interval in a 12-tones-per-octave system we should call that "Small". So that B, G, Ab, F, Eb root motion describes a motific gesture (and an interval vector) that could be described as "Big, Small, Less Big, Less Small" ...and then you could use variations on that gesture/vector to inform your improvising over the chord sequence.

iow, it's not so much about finding the notes that harmonize vertically with the chord sequence so much as it is about creating melodic phrases that reflect the shape of the line that the chord sequence outlines. It's more about the distance (intervals) between the notes you play sequentially than it is about the resultant simultaneities.

If you listen closely to a lot of the licks that AlexDaThird plays over "Them Changes" you can hear that his lines are based on lots of symmetrical intervals as well as expanding/shrinking intervals. He's not thinking about "what chord-scale/tension is this note when sounded against that chord?", he's thinking about "what intervallic shape conveys a similar essence to the fabric created by the chord sequence?"

 

[Bass'd on a true story]

Great answer. I'll have to try to adjust my thinking process to incorporate that kind of approach. How can I practice improvising based on interval sizes and relationships?

 

[Bob_Ross]

How can I practice improvising based on interval sizes and relationships?

By being aware of those interval sizes & relationships..and then finding musical ways to let those parameters guide your ear.

One of the reasons I mentioned describing the ordered interval vector of "Them Changes" as Big, Small, Less Big, Less Small is because that's a less specific abstraction than, for example, describing it as Major Third, Half Step, Minor Third, Whole Step ...and by perceiving that series as an abstraction it gets much easier to augment or diminish it without getting too caught up in making those augmentations/diminutions proportional. That way your Big, Small, Less Big, Less Small motif can be manipulated to accommodate how your lines lie against the accompaniment without adhering dogmatically to a scheme that may sound dissonant. Let your ear be the final arbiter...but expand what your ear accepts by listening to how these interval-based motifs relate to the structure of the tune.

 

[Bass'd on a true story]

Ok, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you so much! Maybe I'll post a noodle-along of me playing this song so that people can give me a few more pointers.

 

[RandomBass90]

I'm afraid that I don't know enough theory to really be able to assist you with the deconstruction of that track, I just wanted to chime in and say that I couldn't agree more with your assessment of Thundercat as a player. Totally mindblowing musician, I adore his first album The Golden Age of Apocalypse, as well as his work with Flying Lotus, like on track's Never Catch Me, Pickled!, Mmmhmm, and Dance of the Pseudo Nymph. Not sure if you are already aware of that material, but if not they could be more songs for you to try to deconstruct.

Not a terribly huge fan of rap overall, but this is some of the best I've ever heard, lyrically and otherwise. Plus that bass drool


And here's Thundercat rocking a sick bassline with the help of what I'm guessing is a ring mod or some such. Very tight.


And that kid is going places, holy crap.