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Help with identifying keys

DeadbeatLine

DeadbeatLine

Nov 13, 2013
184
84
#1
Hi guys, looking for a little music theory help. I've always struggled extremely badly with trying to understand music theory (my brain just doesn't seem wired for it) but I am again forcing myself to try and learn. Unfortunately after many years I am not far off being a complete beginner and only knowing the basics.

I am currently on the topic of identifying keys, and to practice I have been using my own bands songs and trying to figure them out. My current method seems to be listening for what I feel is the root of the scale, and then seeing if any other of the main notes being played are also within the scale, and ignoring any that feel like passing notes that don't fit. So far so good, right?

Now i'm trying to figure out another song, a much older one. (For reference - ) I initially thought that it was in E major as it sounds somewhat happy and poppy however my guitarist tells me its in G# Minor. Both scales contain a selection of the right notes, So how do I choose which one is the correct Key? Is it just as simple as picking the one with the most notes that fit?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks guys!
 
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#2
Definitely sounds minor to me. I think it's C# minor though (which is E major's related minor, so all the same scale tones).
 
#3
bholder said:
Definitely sounds minor to me. I think it's C# minor though (which is E major's related minor, so all the same scale tones).
Click to expand...

Hah, so I was half right I suppose. Although G# seems to sound more fitting than E to me but maybe I've just frazzled my brain a little.

So, with regards to my question, If two seperate keys/scales both contain notes from the song, how do you tell which key it is? Seem to be really struggling with this. Unfortunately my musical ear is pretty terrible also.
 
#4
DeadbeatLine said:
Hah, so I was half right I suppose. Although G# seems to sound more fitting than E to me but maybe I've just frazzled my brain a little.

So, with regards to my question, If two seperate keys/scales both contain notes from the song, how do you tell which key it is? Seem to be really struggling with this. Unfortunately my musical ear is pretty terrible also.
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The C major scale is the same notes as the A minor scale, just starting and stopping at different places. Same with E major and C# minor (Db minor). As to which fits best, just have to use your ear and figure out which note sounds more like the root.
 
#5
bholder said:
The C major scale is the same notes as the A minor scale, just starting and stopping at different places. Same with E major and C# minor (Db minor). As to which fits best, just have to use your ear and figure out which note sounds more like the root.
Click to expand...

Ah sorry I see what you're saying but I don't think you're quite understanding what I'm asking (this could all be down to my lack of knowledge on the subject - apologies if so)

What I mean is, when I was working out the key and I initially thought that it was in E major, the E major scale contained some of the notes being played in the song. The G# Minor scale ALSO contained correct notes, but obviously these are two unrelated scales. In other situations where the same occurs, how do I tell which one is the correct key?
 
#6
Well, not entirely related scales, they're harmonically close and share most notes with only a few different - focus on the notes that are different between to the two scales in question, play them against the tune, and see which sounds better.

Also, a lot of modern popular music doesn't really follow traditional music theory much at all. A bit dated now, but good luck figuring out what "key" most Nirvana tunes are in - they aren't.
 
#7
bholder said:
Well, not entirely related scales, they're harmonically close and share most notes with only a few different - focus on the notes that are different between to the two scales in question, play them against the tune, and see which sounds better.

Also, a lot of modern popular music doesn't really follow traditional music theory much at all. A bit dated now, but good luck figuring out what "key" most Nirvana tunes are in - they aren't.
Click to expand...

So basically, try a lot of different Keys that contain fitting notes and see which notes seem to fit better? hahah. Sounds like a lot of trial and error and guesswork.

Thanks for the advice!
 
#8
DeadbeatLine said:
So basically, try a lot of different Keys that contain fitting notes and see which notes seem to fit better? hahah. Sounds like a lot of trial and error and guesswork.

Thanks for the advice!
Click to expand...
Well yeah, but the thing is, it gets easier the more practice you have at it, like most things. You don't need a bass in hand to practice finding the root, just humming along with a tune ought to be enough. You might need a bass to figure out what the note name is, of course, but hearing the pitch shouldn't be that hard.
 
#10
DeadbeatLine said:
.................. What I mean is, when I was working out the key and I initially thought that it was in E major, the E major scale contained some of the notes being played in the song. The G# Minor scale ALSO contained correct notes, but obviously these are two unrelated scales. In other situations where the same occurs, how do I tell which one is the correct key?
Click to expand...
Listen as you run your G string. Let your ear be the final judge. Here is what I do. Listen to the song and run the G string notes up the neck one fret at a time. If you have a keyboard handy I'd start on middle C and walk up one note at a time. Its easier to pick out the key on the keyboard than our bass, because of the lower frequencies. When what is playing on the song and what you are doing with the G string sound good together you've found the tonal center of that song. Look down at what note that happened on. That's your key. Yep major or minor you kinda have to feel.

If you have the fake chord sheet music look at what chord the verse starts on and stops on. If the verse starts and stops on the same chord the name of that chord is your key. Stopping is more important than starting. If all the verses stop with the same chord that chord's name is probably going to be the key. Be aware sometime the last line of a verse may end with the 5th not the root -- because the 5th leads to the tonic root starting the first line of the next verse, i.e. the 5th is used as a tie to the first line of the next verse or chorus. Long story short; listen for the tonal center of the verse, that note is your key. Your thinking is sound. By listening for the root of the scale that is probably the same thing I call listening for the tonal center note. You are on the right track.

Beyond that look for the dominant seven chord and see what key it would fit in. This can be misleading as some songwriters thrown dominant sevens chords in willy neely.

After awhile of listening and walking your G string it'll began to come into focus, i.e. you get better at this the more you do it.

Good luck.
 
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#11
Nice song, I enjoyed listening to it and playing along!

DeadbeatLine said:
So how do I choose which one is the correct Key?
Click to expand...

Music is a language. Knowing the key of a song is like knowing what is the topic of a sentence or a paragraph. We become fluent in any language (including music) by listening, reading, writing, improvising, having conversations, making jokes, etc. and the more we practice, the better we get.

For example, if I said, "he is brown and furry, likes to chew his bone, and barks at squirrels," you could probably figure out from these clues and context that I am talking about my dog, without me having to actually say the word "dog." Likewise, in music, there are clues and context we can use to understand the song.

One of the most important musical clues is called a "cadence" or "resolution." It's not an easy concept for me to explain in a few words, so here is an article on the topic: Cadence (music) - Wikipedia

Perhaps the strongest cadence in all of music is from "five" to "one" (usually written in Roman numerals as V to I, or in music theory lingo, dominant to tonic). So if we listen to the song for cadences such as five-one, that gives us some musical clues what key we might be in. I'm hearing lots of D# to G# in the chorus of "Be All, End All." This sure sounds like a five-one cadence to me (D# being the fifth scale degree of G#).

But is it G# minor or G# major? Another important clue is the chord that comes before the D#. The progression E-D#-G# is a very common cadence in minor keys. I know this because I've heard this progression before, listening to and learning lots of songs. So I am thinking the chorus of the song is pretty strongly in G# minor, based on the context and clues.

The verse, one could probably make a case for either C# minor or G# minor. I personally however hear it in G# minor.

If the song were in E Major, then we would expect to hear some major-key cadences resolving to E, such as A-B-E (four five one) or F#min-B-E (two five one). Do you hear any chord progressions in this song that strongly lead your ear to resolve to E Major?

By the way, it's totally normal and accepted that songs might have different sections in different keys. This is called "modulation." For example the verse and chorus might be in different keys, and then maybe even a "bridge" section in the middle that goes to a third key. That's kind of like having a conversation in English; you might start off talking about your dog, then a brief rant about how much you hate cats, and then back to the topic of dogs.

The more songs you learn, the more you will start to see common patterns and structural similarities between them.
 
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#12
Absolutely fantastic reply Mushroo, heavily heavily appreciated! Thank you so much. I'll definitely keep Cadences in mind as another clue to figuring it out! I'm happy with myself that I was *relatively* within the ball park. Hahaha
 
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#13
One way to think about it is where the tune seems to come "home" or comes to rest. To my ears, the song you posted is in G# minor. The bass in the verse goes C# - G#, and if you listen together with the vocals it seems to be stepping out (C#) and then going back to rest/home (G#). The chorus phrases end with a dramatic E - D# - G#, i.e. climb anxiously up to the diving board, stand there proudly then dive into the pool. Or in theory terms, the verse is a series of IV-I cadences, the chorus ends with a slightly dissonant flat VI resolving to a dominant V resolving to the I.

To be honest, it can be tricky. There's a few threads on the Internet debating what key Sweet Home Alabama is in. The chords are mostly D-C-G. Is it G because V-IV-I or is it D in a mixolydian kind of mode because I-bVII-IV?

In my very humble opinion, what your ear tells you is right. Theory was developed to efficiently transmit knowledge from teacher to student and as a convenient shorthand for what cannot be explained, only heard.
 
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#14
I think the reason why you cannot grasp music theory is because you haven't started from the very beginning.

1) Memorize your fretboard to the point you can play any note on any string without thinking about it. Not that E (open, 12 on E string), E (7 on A string), E (2 on D string), E (9 on G string) in order crap. As in: Fine E on E string, C on D string, F# on A string, B on G string at 80 bpm in quarter notes.

2) Memorize whole-whole-half-whole-whole-whole-half. That is what makes a major scale.

3) Now apply it to the C major scale: C-D-E-F-G-A-B. Memorize it.

4) Now apply it to the other 11 notes. Memorize it.

5) Combine the scales that you memorized with the fretboard note locations that you memorized.

That should keep you busy for quite a while.
 
#15
DeadbeatLine said:
Any other advice guys?
Click to expand...

Yeah, shift your focus from keys to chords. The notes of a bass line are more closely tied to chords than to keys. During the verse of the example you posted, the movement of chords between C#min and G#min is far more important than whether the song is in C#min, E, G#min or B. Unless you're soloing, the key a song is of very little importance.

FWIW, I say the song is in G#min. During the chorus, the progression RESOLVES when it hits the G#min chord.

EDIT: You know it's not the relative major (B) because the Bmaj chord does not appear in the song.
 
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#16
You can't walk into band practice, announce you've written a new song in the key of D, then count it off...that's not enough information. If you said something like "it goes D-G-A or D-A/C#-Bmin-A" then at least everyone would be starting off in the same neighborhood.
 
#17
I hear it as G#m, but I also think it's got some unorthodox progressions.

One helpful method I use to find the key is to play a little of the G# blues/rock scale and see if it fits around the central tone.
 
#18
elgecko said:
You can't walk into band practice, announce you've written a new song in the key of D, then count it off...that's not enough information. If you said something like "it goes D-G-A or D-A/C#-Bmin-A" then at least everyone would be starting off in the same neighborhood.
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Your band agrees on a key ahead of time?? Luxurious! Most of the time in my world, someone just starts playing a song, and the others join in once we hear the changes.

ps I just noticed you and I joined Talkbass the same month. Happy almost 10 year anniversary to us! :)
 
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