I can post pictures/video if it helps, but for some reason I can only really practice long tones with a singing vibrato for a few minutes before my left shoulder starts to feel tight and I can longer vibrate at a consistent speed or widely. I assume I'm doing something wrong. It is very easy to vibrato in low positions with my pinky, pretty easy with second finger, and then becomes very hard with the first finger, and all fingers in thumb position. This is really frustrating me right now though, because I'm really wanting right now to work on developing a real singing, lyrical vibrato like my teacher's. I'm just wondering am I missing something or using the wrong muscles? Mastery of vibrato is hard I know, but this just seems like too much work, and I don't think that it has much to do with having a really strong shoulder.
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Double Bass Help with Left Shoulder Fatigue due to vibrato
- Thread starter ABlueJazzBassist
- Start date
Would you mind posting a video. Vibrato is something I struggled with for a long time, and it wasn't until I did exercises by Adam Hopkins, did my pain and aches go away. It's a very long process but it is good that you are seeking help. Do you have a teacher? Did you ask them?
Let's see what we can do to help you out, or get you on the right road to help
Let's see what we can do to help you out, or get you on the right road to help
Here is some video. Its a little long because I wanted to show multiple angles and also give it time to really work up to the point where at the end I'm playing a very fast, very narrow vibrato and can't even sustain it at all. My teacher since the beginning of the summer has been Jeff Bradetich, and before that Kate Jones. I've been working on this a lot with him, but I just can't seem to build up any endurance, leading me to believe that it is not an issue of endurance but something I'm doing wrong that must be eluding my teachers. Thanks for the time.
- Jan 24, 2002
- 2,117
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- Disclosures
- NS Design / AER Endorsing Artist
There are two things that really jump out to me in this video.
The first is that your un-engaged left fingers have a tendency to completely curl inward. This is usually a sign that your hand is being put under more tension than necessary. You may be relying on a squeezing technique to bring the string down, which will naturally result in a fist and some level of tension and flexing in the rest of the arm. This is very difficult to maintain and will become exhausting and potentially painful after more than a few minutes.
The much more disturbing thing I see (as in, that which disturbs your ability to play) is your position in relation to the bass. You have the bass set VERY high in relation to your seated height, and VERY vertical. The result is that the neck is much further away, both above and in front of you, than necessary.
Watch your video again and imagine the bass is not there. Watch how your body has to contort itself to reach the lower positions. Your left shoulder is raised well above your ribcage, and you have to stretch your arm around the neck. You're working way too hard.
Perhaps the best thing you could do at the moment is to experiment with your position. As a starting point, I would recommend lowering the endpin until the nut is about the same level as your left temple, and lean the bass back so the neck hovers perhaps 2-3 inches above your left shoulder, and 1-3 inches from the left side of your face. This would do a few things for you:
* Allows your shoulder to consistently rest on your ribcage without the need to raise it
* Allows your arm to dangle from the neck, which significantly reduces the amount of hand strength necessary to keep the string in the board
* Brings the neck much closer to your arm, which gives you far more flexibility to reach around to lower strings
* Makes thumb position much more accessible from a seated position
* Allows for an easy ear-to-neck pitch check you see so many professional orchestra players do
* Should also allow for better use of arm weight in the right arm if you lean forward slightly (though I realize that wasn't part of your question)
Since this is a left hand issue (I wouldn't comment on anyone's bow technique), I'd like to chime in and say that I agree with Paul's assessment here in every respect. I bet the fatigue is a lot worse when vibrating in the lower positions than the higher ones; this would be easy to experiment with even before you change the position of your bass as a purely diagnostic test.
Thanks guys, I'm going to try it. My main concern with a more angled position is that pulling the bow straight on the string becomes harder the further the angle of the bass is. So if you have any solutions for that I'd appreciate it.
There are two issues going on: the height of the bass, and the angle of the bass. I'd recommend starting with the height of the bass first and see if that helps the main issue you mentioned in the OP. The angle of the bass won't affect the height of the elbow/shoulder assembly in the same way unless it's an extreme change. Once the bass comes down, it should lower your shoulder for you.
- Jan 24, 2002
- 2,117
- 950
- Disclosures
- NS Design / AER Endorsing Artist
Any change you make will have its advantages and disadvantages. That's the nature of the game. You kind of have to decide what your priorities, goals, strengths and weaknesses are and go from there. You have to ask what can be worked around, what has to be addressed directly, and what can be ignored.
I choose to place physical health and comfort above anything else. Of course there are occasional musical moments which are not physically comfortable to achieve, but you can't let that be your default. The vast majority of the time, there is a way to do something in a healthy way while still getting the desired tonal result.
That said, I can promise you that you can play from a seated position with a straight bow with your bass leaned back farther. I can do it. Most of my teachers, colleagues, and friends can do it. Even some of my enemies can do it. It just takes practice and attention to detail.
Also keep in mind that you have a TON of variables to work with. Not only can you lean the bass in any direction, but the bass can also rotate in any direction. Your end pin can be any length, angled in any direction, and placed anywhere in front of you both side-to-side and front-to-back. Your stool can be any height, and tilted or not tilted as you please. Your body's position relative to the bass can be anywhere, at any angle, rotated any direction. Your posture can be whatever you want it to be. Just know that changing any one of those things will have an effect on all the others.
Thank you guys. I did lower the height some and angled the bass a lot more steeply, and vibrato is relatively easy and aside from sore shoulder from the previous day it doesn't seem to cause problems. I will try to focus on letting gravity do the work for me more for the bass. Prior to this summer I used to sit in a position more similar to this, and before that I used to use a Rabbath end-pin but since studying with Mr. Bradetich I've tried to emulate his posture. Unfortunately I didn't think about the fact that he is a giant, and I most certainly am not. I can pull the bow straight, even German, so that fear was misguided. I simply needed to rotate the bass more into me to make it quite doable. Thank you for the advice guys, I'd been getting so discouraged and just wanted to put the bass down after trying so hard. I'll try to keep a more open mind to solutions in the future, and remember that making relaxing such hard work is a bit ironic.
Paul you hit the nail on the head... again...
take as much of this as you can OP, it doesnt get any better.Something tought to me was to avoid "Cell phone vibrato". What that is, if your vibrato sounds like your cell on vibrate, there is something wrong.
My suggestion is at this new height and technique focus on your left hand. Dont squeeze or press, let gravity take control.
Once you feel the lack of pressure you can start really working on it.
This exercise I attribute to Adam Hopkins, who helped me develop a vibrato that most in my studio are envious of. (and I know a few who would love to learn these techniques) With a few other tricks that will help your bowing at the same time I attribute to John Geggie/Hal Robinson bowings.
The Exercise: Vibrato Workout
Tools: Bass, Bow, Strings(ect.), Most importantly a metronome.
How to perform the exercise:
1.Set metronome to something comfortable, when I practice this I start at 50 and work my way to about 120-162. Lets say 50bpm
2. Place your finger on the string and start to do an exaggerated motion of the vibrato, vibrating on the quarter notes. This will help you get a feel for what vibrato should feel like and look like, you should do this for about 2 or 3 minutes
3. Stay at 50bpm and do eight notes, triplets and sixteenth notes. This is where it gets tricky, and much more difficult to do at higher speeds. Slow and steady. 2 or 3 minutes each.
4. Continue doing this at the same rate, when you get more comfortable add in bowings, my favorites: At eighth notes slur every 4 beats, at tripilets slur every 2 (yes 2), at 16th's every eighth. You can choose your combo's and such, however it is important not to go too fast you can hurt yourself.
5. add together and up the tempo.
6. Arguably the most important step in the entire process: Listen to other bassists vibrato. Listen to what you like, listen to what you dont. Listen for times when to vibrate and when not to vibrate. Do you vibrate more or less in baroque music, do you vibrate more or less in Romantic music. Do I vibrate more or less when I want to get louder. Do I vibrate more or less depending on the theme: For example do I vibrate more in Koussevitzky's Chanson Triste and less in Humoresque? As a musician you need to be listening constantly, this is what is going to help you the most in your musical development.
Thanks Bassmastan, I will definitely be stealing that exercise. I think the listening to other bassist's is what has had me so frustrated/depressed! I know the sound I want to hear, but instead I've been getting what I had in that video. However, I've been repositioned today and vibrato's been quite a bit easier and wider.
Great to hear! I'll be sending you a PM shortly also.
You should be developing your sound, but it isn't a bad idea to model after the very amazing soloists out there. My vibrato is modeled from a very old tradition of bass playing that has sort of died out. I studied HJ Butler's methods of bass, which you might never have heard of. Not saying that I recommend that book,but the tradition is very similar to that of Josef Kraft and yet has some things that were unconventional for the time. I would compare it to the American School of bass that Mark Morton teaches, but it's version 1.0 and Morton's is version 3.0
Jeff has an amazing vibrato. Don't be afraid to ask your teacher(s) to play for you, say that you need to see it. Let them know that you are comfortable with them adjusting you, and moving your hand/arm. If you're more of a visual learner this might help.
I agree with most of the comments above about repositioning the bass to your body in order to bring your LH more naturally up to the neck from your side. The height of your elbow in relation to your hand is IMO very important. Raising it or lowering it an inch can have a big effect on freedom of vibrato. The elbow should never be higher than, or pulled back behind, the level of your shoulder.
Look for a PM from me.
DP
Look for a PM from me.
DP
I am struggling with vibrato also. We can learn a lot form cello and violin vibrato approaches. I realy enjoyed this cello vid:
You might also consider a bent end pin, even when seated:
Good luck and cheer from the Netherlands!
You might also consider a bent end pin, even when seated:
Good luck and cheer from the Netherlands!
Contained within the cello video above are some good things. However, I differ when he describes rotating the two bones in the forearm as part of the action. If you observe his later demonstration of faster vibrato (at usual speed) you will see that he is not doing this. His forearm and hand are moving as one as his cupped hand stands high, he rolls from the elbow and he relaxes his upper arm and shoulder to counterbalance the movement. The metaphor of bouncing a basketball is good.
We have a bigger instrument - different range of body positions, thicker neck, wider spacings of fingers, etc, etc. The thumb on the back of the neck is IMO part of the vibrato movement and is always best placed directly behind the finger doing the vibrato (if time permits). We also tend to press the strings slightly further away from the tips of our fingers and our calluses tend to form more towards the outsides of our index and pinkie fingers.
If you put Vibrato into the Search box there are some good past discussions to be found, setting aside all the BG ones.
Good hunting, DP
We have a bigger instrument - different range of body positions, thicker neck, wider spacings of fingers, etc, etc. The thumb on the back of the neck is IMO part of the vibrato movement and is always best placed directly behind the finger doing the vibrato (if time permits). We also tend to press the strings slightly further away from the tips of our fingers and our calluses tend to form more towards the outsides of our index and pinkie fingers.
If you put Vibrato into the Search box there are some good past discussions to be found, setting aside all the BG ones.
Good hunting, DP
Craig Green,
It looks to me like a related issue, (as Paul Cannon mentioned), is the tension that is shown throughout your left hand, especially in the "unused" fingers. They appear to be locked and stiff. This rigidity will inhibit the transfer of any incoming motion from your shoulder, arm and wrist, and will cause a very narrow, brittle, tight vibrato. This tension may be contributing to the discomfort, as well.
Are you able to bow ( NO vibrato) and hold a note, say, with your first finger, and "flex" (slowly extend over the fingerboard and contract into your palm) the 3 unused fingers? (Try playing the D on the Gstring, with your 1st finger, while extending and contracting 2,3 and 4 - also do the math and try the other combinations: hold 2, while flexing 1,3&4; hold 3&4, while flexing 1&2). Don't be concerned with pitch or vibrato at this point - you're simply attempting to manage the muscles throughout your shoulder, arm and hand, with the goal being "looseness and relaxation" in the fingers that are not playing a note, while also developing a sense of flexibility/strength and "bounce" in the finger that IS playing the note. This is the same concept that Mech. Engineers use in designing structures that appear rigid, but are extremely strong, because of the built-in "flex" (think of an airplane's wing; or the proverb of the rigid tree that cracks in the wind, while the tree that is flexible, survives). This exercise was taught to me by James VanDemark and was extremely helpful in both loosening/strengthening my left hand while opening my ears and limbs to the basic mechanics of vibrato. Even if the issues that may be occurring in your wrist, forearm, elbow, shoulder, etc. are addressed, the motion of those areas will not translate into a smooth, loose vibrato, if the structure of your left hand is rigid. When I was in school, there were 2 groups - those whose left hands needed "tightening", and those whose left hands needed "loosening". I was definitely in the latter group, so I feel your pain.
I don't mean to "pile-on", but I think this would be a worthwhile area for you to explore.
Good Luck.
(I tried to upload a video of me demonstrating, but I am still technologically "rigid"...).
Thanks.
Don Kasper
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Lots of great advice here! I'm curious, Do you have the same pains when standing? I experience left shoulder pain when sitting... It's a posture thing. I find standing up its much easier to find a natural stance where the bass is leaning on me and I'm balanced.
