Help with Modes, Intervals, Note Locations, 5ths, 3rds, 6ths, 4ths, etc

[ZuluFoxtrot]

Hello all, first of all thank you all for the enormous amount of help and information contained within this forum...it's staggering actually, and maybe overwhelming!

I need some help and maybe validation on what to practice on and if my woodshed practice is going in the right direction.

I'm in my 2nd month of learning bass. This is my first musical instrument I have ever tried to play.

I have an instructor that I have had 4 lessons with. I like him a lot but he is a professional touring musician and really is an amazing bassist who has online instruction, teaches at university and does clinics and all that fun stuff, to be honest I think he may be one of the top 5 bassists playing today...but I may be biased. We are doing one hour lessons knee to knee and I have been practicing on the instrument about an hour or two every day, with a day off on Fridays. I have learned scales of all 7 modes in two octaves up and down, chord progressions based on a key, Arpeggios and what major, minor, dominant, minor 7 flat 5/half diminished all mean and which mode they relate to.

What I feel I am not great at is the note locations. I know the "default" note locations - A string fret 2,3,5,7 for notes B,C,D,E and E string fret 1,3,5 for F,G,A. I have not yet learned all the octave shapes (2 strings up and 2 frets up and 3 strings down and 3 frets up) perfectly so I can easily and QUICKLY in my head know where all the notes are on any string and associate the interval of a mode with what note I am playing. I would summarize that I learned the pattern and the interval for each mode, but not the note names for every interval and their fret/string....so the fretboard is a big minefield for me right now!

Also I am trying to learn the musical alphabet backwards, so I can start anywhere and know GFEDCBA, FEDCBAG, EDCBAGF, DCBAGFC without processing, like I can with the musical alphabet going 'up'.

So, I think I'm on the right path that next I need to woodshed all the notes so 'bam' I know without processing that that the 6th of G Phrygian is Eb, above or below the root center...or A Dorian's 4th interval is F, above or below the root center of A...or Eb Locrian's 5th is A no matter if I'm above or below the root of Eb...because I know that's where my finger is fretting and automatically my brain knows what note is being played.

I spend time yesterday analyzing my practice time and felt like this is my current problem, I couldn't sit down with a chord sheet in the key of G and play anywhere except where I learned the 'default 7 whole note locations.

For example if I'm trying this 'walking-ish' bass line in the key of G:

[: A-7|D7|G^7|C^7 :]

I can play this all ascending, all descending, alternating ascending+descenging and ascending+descending within each arpeggio...but I would be stuck there and not sure where to play the 'root' on another string depending on the phrasing or where the rest of the gig was heading (boring?) I think, depending on what the other musicians are doing, it would be good to know I could move around to other strings and play the same root to add more 'spice' musically.

So I play this with those 'default' note locations on the E and A string only for now and I only know that it's in the key of G due to the corresponding modes of the chord progression:

Minor 7 (Mode 2,3 or 6)
Dominant 7 (mode 5)
Major 7 (mode 1,4)

So by the key and the chord progressions it has to be in the key of G (I didn't know that when I started playing it, it was introduced as a question after I had learned the bassline).

This is ending poorly without a real way to ask what I need, but am I headed down the right path with really focusing on learning all 12 notes on all my strings (BEADG)? It's hard! I will still keep playing modes and their intervals, but would also 'sing' the note for each interval of each mode as I play it so I know where every note is.

Thanks for reading.

TL;DR: should I spend time learning all the note locations on each string based on where I'm at? I just can't seem to get it with how I practice now so I'm looking for 'validation' spending time learning every note is what is holding me back from playing something resembling music (vs. scales and modes).

Thanks,
Brett

 

[Mushroo]

You're way over-complicating things for your 2nd month. Want my advice? (Of course you do... that's why you asked! )

First off, there is a glaring omission in your post, that is huge red flag for me: At no point did you use the word "song"!!! Who are your favorite bands? Who are you favorite bassists? Do you have a #1 favorite album of all time? What kind of band are you looking to join? What songs would you like to learn?

If you were my student, I'd have you spend maybe 90-95% of your practice time learning songs, and only 5-10% on scales and stuff like that. But that 5-10% is very important, so let's move on and answer your actual question:

There are 12 major scales (15 if you count "enharmonic" keys like F# and Gb, which are written differently, but sound exactly the same). Memorize all the major scales, 1 per day. It will take you about 2 weeks. For each of the major scales, I encourage you to learn the following:

1. What is the key signature? (Which notes are sharp or flat?)
2. What are the names of the notes in the scale?
3. Can you write the scale in musical notation?
   
4. Can you sing the scale (while saying the note names)?
5. Can you play the scale anywhere and everywhere on your bass? What about up high? Down low? Starting from different fingers? Using only one string? etc.
   
6. (Optional but encouraged) Can you think of a famous song that uses this scale?

I'll do the first one now: The C Major scale has no sharps and no flats. The notes are CDEFGABC. Here I am singing it. (You'll have to take my word for it.) Now I am playing it on my bass. Hmmm, famous song using C Major: Imagine by John Lennon.

Check back in a couple of weeks once you've memorized all your major scales, and we'll take it from there.

Oh and by the way: why am I emphasizing this method? Because it's really important to understand that scales are not shapes! Arpeggios are not shapes. Bass lines are not shapes. Songs are not shapes. Don't fall into the mental trap of thinking in shapes, so early in your musical education. Do it right from the beginning (by learning all of the major scales inside and out, not just taking some "major scale shape" and moving it up or down the neck) and you'll have a solid foundation for learning songs.

 

[ZuluFoxtrot]

You're way over-complicating things for your 2nd month. Want my advice? (Of course you do... that's why you asked! )

I won't quote the entire message but yes that's exactly what I was doing and I thought it was a mistake - everything was turning into just memorizing shapes and the interval numbers.

As for songs, I have been learning some bass lines to songs, mostly motown stuff, Cool Jerk is my favorite song of all time. I have tried to learn some other songs from my favorite artists like the Grateful Dead, Phish, Journey, Sublime, Lincoln Brewster (Norm Stockton)...and I love some of the "A star is born" Bradley Cooper 'songs' but don't understand what's going on musically and just reading tab to stumble through learning songs.

I think your 1-5 summarized exactly what I need to really focus on! Basically only #4 is what I have been doing, but with patterns and interval numbers.

Thank you so much for taking the time to give me some feedback!

 

[Mushroo]

Cool Jerk is my favorite song of all time.

Great song! You'll learn a lot about rhythmic "feel" by practicing that bass line.

One exercise you could try: It's been a while since I played "Cool Jerk," but I seem to remember experimenting whether to start the bass line on the D string with my 1st finger, or on the A string with my 4th finger. A really good exercise would be to switch back and forth between these two (or maybe more!) possible fingerings. This is good reinforcement that "songs are not shapes" as your eyes see that your fingers are moving in different patterns, but your ears hear that the notes haven't changed.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

You and your instructor are way ahead of most of us for the amount of skin you have in the game.

One thing I may throw your way is to think in A, B, C's and 1, 2, 3's --- you are on the B, where is it's octave 8? Up two strings and over two frets. Always. On the B where is it's 5th? Down a string same fret, or up a string and over two frets. Always.

Post #4 of How to get started? Has enough to get you started thinking in numbers.

The 6 of any note will be up two frets and back one fret - from that note. I think that is what you are looking for.

Talk with your instructor and the two of you work out your way of doing this. It really is a piece of cake once you see the "pattern".

Good luck

 

[Mushroo]

You and your instructor are way ahead of most of us for the amount of skin you have in the game.

One thing I may throw your way is to think in A, B, C's and 1, 2, 3's --- you are on the B, where is it's octave 8? Up two strings and over two frets. Always. On the B where is it's 5th? Down a string same fret, or up a string and over two frets. Always.

The 6 of any note will be up two frets and back one fret - from that note. I think that is what you are looking for.

I just want to compliment you, Malcolm: I've been following your posts for a long time, and you always have a knack for clear explanations and overall helpfulness. )

 

[ZuluFoxtrot]

Definitely hugely into this as well as 5th fret is the same as the string above it and 7th fret same note as string below it. The 4th above and 5th below being same fret, and those octave shapes up 2 over 2 and down 3 over 3.

I've been totally immersing myself in as much as I can take in mentally and physically, and as @Mushroo noted before I don't spend really any time on songs or transcribing anything.

You and your instructor are way ahead of most of us for the amount of skin you have in the game.

One thing I may throw your way is to think in A, B, C's and 1, 2, 3's --- you are on the B, where is it's octave 8? Up two strings and over two frets. Always. On the B where is it's 5th? Down a string same fret, or up a string and over two frets. Always.

The 6 of any note will be up two frets and back one fret - from that note. I think that is what you are looking for.

 

[ZuluFoxtrot]

I just want to compliment you, Malcolm: I've been following your posts for a long time, and you always have a knack for clear explanations and overall helpfulness. )

Agree...the info Mr. @MalcolmAmos posted in "How to Get Started" are almost daily reads for me. This place really is great.

 

[mambo4]

I would summarize that I learned the pattern and the interval for each mode, but not the note names for every interval and their fret/string....so the fretboard is a big minefield for me right now!

So you know fingering patterns but not the names of the notes on your fret board, or the names of notes of each interval in the scale.

Pacman's sure-fire scale practice method

is probably the best method for learning the names of notes on your fretboard.
I would advise you to focus only on memorizing the names of notes for the 12 major scales at first.
Then using the scale degree numbers that malcom mentions,
learn to see each mode as an alteration of the major scale pattern.

for example C major would be C D E F G A B
C Dorian would be C D Eb F G A Bb

but viewed as scale degrees:
Major : 1 2 3 4 5 6
Dorian: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

We can see that the notes of C dorian are C major, but with a minor 3rd and a minor 7th.
So, If you have memorized C major and that Dorian 'formula' you can find what the note names are.

 

[Don M]

Hello all, first of all thank you all for the enormous amount of help and information contained within this forum...it's staggering actually, and maybe overwhelming!

I need some help and maybe validation on what to practice on and if my woodshed practice is going in the right direction.

I'm in my 2nd month of learning bass. This is my first musical instrument I have ever tried to play.

I have an instructor that I have had 4 lessons with. I like him a lot but he is a professional touring musician and really is an amazing bassist who has online instruction, teaches at university and does clinics and all that fun stuff, to be honest I think he may be one of the top 5 bassists playing today...but I may be biased. We are doing one hour lessons knee to knee and I have been practicing on the instrument about an hour or two every day, with a day off on Fridays. I have learned scales of all 7 modes in two octaves up and down, chord progressions based on a key, Arpeggios and what major, minor, dominant, minor 7 flat 5/half diminished all mean and which mode they relate to.

What I feel I am not great at is the note locations. I know the "default" note locations - A string fret 2,3,5,7 for notes B,C,D,E and E string fret 1,3,5 for F,G,A. I have not yet learned all the octave shapes (2 strings up and 2 frets up and 3 strings down and 3 frets up) perfectly so I can easily and QUICKLY in my head know where all the notes are on any string and associate the interval of a mode with what note I am playing. I would summarize that I learned the pattern and the interval for each mode, but not the note names for every interval and their fret/string....so the fretboard is a big minefield for me right now!

Also I am trying to learn the musical alphabet backwards, so I can start anywhere and know GFEDCBA, FEDCBAG, EDCBAGF, DCBAGFC without processing, like I can with the musical alphabet going 'up'.

So, I think I'm on the right path that next I need to woodshed all the notes so 'bam' I know without processing that that the 6th of G Phrygian is Eb, above or below the root center...or A Dorian's 4th interval is F, above or below the root center of A...or Eb Locrian's 5th is A no matter if I'm above or below the root of Eb...because I know that's where my finger is fretting and automatically my brain knows what note is being played.

I spend time yesterday analyzing my practice time and felt like this is my current problem, I couldn't sit down with a chord sheet in the key of G and play anywhere except where I learned the 'default 7 whole note locations.

For example if I'm trying this 'walking-ish' bass line in the key of G:

[: A-7|D7|G^7|C^7 :]

I can play this all ascending, all descending, alternating ascending+descenging and ascending+descending within each arpeggio...but I would be stuck there and not sure where to play the 'root' on another string depending on the phrasing or where the rest of the gig was heading (boring?) I think, depending on what the other musicians are doing, it would be good to know I could move around to other strings and play the same root to add more 'spice' musically.

So I play this with those 'default' note locations on the E and A string only for now and I only know that it's in the key of G due to the corresponding modes of the chord progression:

Minor 7 (Mode 2,3 or 6)
Dominant 7 (mode 5)
Major 7 (mode 1,4)

So by the key and the chord progressions it has to be in the key of G (I didn't know that when I started playing it, it was introduced as a question after I had learned the bassline).

This is ending poorly without a real way to ask what I need, but am I headed down the right path with really focusing on learning all 12 notes on all my strings (BEADG)? It's hard! I will still keep playing modes and their intervals, but would also 'sing' the note for each interval of each mode as I play it so I know where every note is.

Thanks for reading.

TL;DR: should I spend time learning all the note locations on each string based on where I'm at? I just can't seem to get it with how I practice now so I'm looking for 'validation' spending time learning every note is what is holding me back from playing something resembling music (vs. scales and modes).

Thanks,
Brett

Brett....fantastic job on learning all that already. How do you have all that time? I've been playing for 3 years and don't know a tenth of that. I mainly learn and then forget songs if I don't play them often enough. But this probable all hinges on the fact that I have job with crazy hours and kids that play club sports. I'm lucky have 2 hours of practice a week outside of my lesson and then my rehearsal. And I still can't read music either, but have gotten to the point where I can occasionally read tab and play.

 

[ZuluFoxtrot]

I'm a 'little' OCD I suppose...I tend to immerse myself in things and assimilate as much as possible, I get up early to practice for 15-30 minutes before work and then practice for an hour or so after coming home from work and walking the doggos and before dinner. Kids are all grown up gone and have no need for me anymore so I have time for a 'hobby'.

Lunch break at work I read this General Instruction forum and review instructional websites and books on bass (like Ari Cap's book) and the Norm Stockton Art of Groove website ( www.artofgroove.com ).

Learning how to play bass may be the most difficult thing I have attempted in life. It's so complex and music theory seems to be a beast to learn!

Those are kind words, I appreciate you saying it. Recently I have wanted to pack it in and just enjoy music vs. making it but my resolve has doubled and my I have found some patience while I learn the bas(s)ics.

Brett....fantastic job on learning all that already. How do you have all that time? I've been playing for 3 years and don't know a tenth of that. I mainly learn and then forget songs if I don't play them often enough. But this probable all hinges on the fact that I have job with crazy hours and kids that play club sports. I'm lucky have 2 hours of practice a week outside of my lesson and then my rehearsal. And I still can't read music either, but have gotten to the point where I can occasionally read tab and play.

 

[Don M]

Kids are gone.....that helps! Only one of mine is "out", even though I think she is more work now! My problem is I don't think I have the attention span to learn all of the intricate stuff. I think that is why I like the setup at the School of Rock where you learn songs for your performance and the instructors incorporate technique and theory stuff when they teach the songs.

 

[Bioflava]

Your post was pretty long and I didn't understand it all. But, yes, you should endeavor to learn the all note locations, and practice scales, and learn songs. PS: This is a great technique and I highly recommend it to learn the locations of all the notes:

 

[Nashrakh]

IMO, there's no better way to learn the notes of the fretboard than playing written music. It'll also expose you to making choices of efficiency regarding different fingering possibilities, which is just as important.

For the "dusty end" of the board, read some music in treble clef, like melodies or heads.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Hello all, first of all thank you all for the enormous amount of help and information contained within this forum...it's staggering actually, and maybe overwhelming!

I need some help and maybe validation on what to practice on and if my woodshed practice is going in the right direction.

I'm in my 2nd month of learning bass. This is my first musical instrument I have ever tried to play.

I have an instructor that I have had 4 lessons with. I like him a lot but he is a professional touring musician and really is an amazing bassist who has online instruction, teaches at university and does clinics and all that fun stuff, to be honest I think he may be one of the top 5 bassists playing today...
Brett

I'm sorry... You already have access and are taking lessons from a high level bassist. What are you asking these questions here for? I'm sure he's giving you plenty to work on already. But you should just ask your teacher, instead of a bunch of people whose credentials you have no idea about, with their truly well meaning, but random suggestions. Too much randomness will clutter your mind. Focus is fuel to learning.

Don't distract yourself with this internet stuff. You don't need any validation. What you need is to practice. This stuff doesn't happen instantly and 2 months is nothing. If you don't trust the source of your instruction, then get another teacher. But from your description, he seems fine. Just do what he tells you. He didn't get to the level he is by accident.

At this stage of your development, the best thing you can do is to listen to your teacher and stay away from TalkBass.

 

[ZuluFoxtrot]

@Spin Doctor agree fully often times for me it helps hearing others methods of reframing and reinforcing concepts. Especially those here like yourself that are in a space with the instrument where I aspire to be someday!!!

Thank you for the guidance it is appreciated!

 

[Spin Doctor]

@Spin Doctor agree fully often times for me it helps hearing others methods of reframing and reinforcing concepts. Especially those here like yourself that are in a space with the instrument where I aspire to be someday!!!

Thank you for the guidance it is appreciated!

Well, there's nothing inherently wrong with TalkBass as there are a lot of talented and knowledgeable people here. But sometimes, you can get a lot of varying answers to simple questions along with links to videos, etc etc and at your stage of development, you can't weed it out. If you fool with that extraneous stuff, then it takes time away from what your instructor wants you to work on. All that random stuff is for people who don't have a good teacher.

So, since your teacher is a pro player and teaches at the university level, it's best to just focus on what he has to say. I recommend that you direct all your questions to him. That will cut down on the potential info overload. You're paying him for his knowledge, so it's in your best musical and financial interest to use it. When I was studying in earnest with an acknowledged master teacher, I just did what he said without question. The reason I did it without question is because I realized early on that there was absolutely nothing about bass or music that I knew better than he did.

If you look at all the musical information in total, yes, it's overwhelming, but it's just a brick by brick process. You learn one thing, then another thing and after awhile, you kinda have it. But there's always something to learn, no matter what level you might be. You already have a big advantage personality wise. Being kinda OCD is the best trait a musician can have.

Sorry for being so long winded... Go practice.