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Hey! Speaker nerds!

GearHeadBassMan

GearHeadBassMan

Apr 26, 2007
1,707
9
Springfield, MA
#1
I'm looking for Bill Fitz, Greenboy, and other standouts of the 3-way cab revolution to explain to me the science behind how a 3 way cab (such as one based of the fEARful 15/6) has the ability to hold its own with a similarly built 4x10. Based on my basic knowledge of "more speaker area= more volume" how do these cabs push the same amount of air and volume?
 
#2
Speaker nerds...lol! That'll get 'em running to help you!

Speaker area is only one part of the equation. Efficiency of the cab design and how much air the driver itself will displace are also major factors. The fEarful uses a very high efficiency driver with lots of displacement capability, and it goes into a cab designed to maximize efficiency.
 
#3
By "hold its own" you mean "utterly embarrass almost any 4x10 on the market" right? A 6x10 would be a more fair comparison.

It's not speaker area. It's speaker area * xmax = volume displacement of air. the 3015Lf has 846cc vD (displacement) while a standard 10" speaker in a 4x10 cabinet ranges from 110cc to 200cc.

Those few cabs that use high displacement (200cc) 10" woofers tend to sound like crap due to the lack of any real midrange presence over 1khz-1.2khz (due to not having a midrange driver) and poor midrange dispersion (over something like 600hz) due to the 10" speakers being placed side by side.
 
#4
Cone area x excursion = volume of air moved. The high output 3-ways use high-end woofers that have considerably longer excursion than most 10" bass cab woofers, and that makes up for their lesser cone area in comparison with four 10's.
 
#6
rpsands said:
By "hold its own" you mean "utterly embarrass almost any 4x10 on the market" right? A 6x10 would be a more fair comparison.

It's not speaker area. It's speaker area * xmax = volume displacement of air. the 3015Lf has 846cc vD (displacement) while a standard 10" speaker in a 4x10 cabinet ranges from 110cc to 200cc.

Those few cabs that use high displacement (200cc) 10" woofers tend to sound like crap due to the lack of any real midrange presence over 1khz-1.2khz (due to not having a midrange driver) and poor midrange dispersion (over something like 600hz) due to the 10" speakers being placed side by side.
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by that knowledge, would a 2x10/2x6 three way cab using those high displacement drivers make up for the loss in midrange?

basically, I'd like to look into a 3 way cab based around the 3015LF due to weight vs. volume but don't want to lose the 10" sound that I'm used to/prefer over the 15"s I've used.
 
#7
The whole reason behind the mid driver is to give you what you like about 10"s much stronger across the whole stage, and using a 15" for the lows and low mids to get more volume with them. So using 10"s would defeat the purpose of the full-range cab. And you'd be using two speakers to do the work that one can do, and judging by most 210's out there, you probably won't get near the low end that you can get with the single 15".

In other words, don't try to reinvent the wheel. If you want 10"s, there are plenty of cabs you can get rather than re-engineering a very efficient design into an inefficient design. If Greenboy thought two 10"s would work better than a single 15", he'd make them.
 
#10
GearHeadBassMan said:
basically, I'd like to look into a 3 way cab based around the 3015LF due to weight vs. volume but don't want to lose the 10" sound that I'm used to/prefer over the 15"s I've used.
Click to expand...

The first thing you need to get over is that a speaker size has a specific sound to it because they simply don't, there are sweeping generalisations you can make and for the most part they only exist because people keep making 10s or 15s to sound "how they should" if you will. If you wanna get over your "sound noobness" then this is one of the fundamentals you need to get over, to be honest I still find it hard work when I look at my Berg NV215 and trying not to think that it sounds like a beast in the low end simply because of it's 2 huge 15 drivers.

So alot of 10s will have that typical 10" speaker sound, and vice versa. But there's absolutely nothing to stop you making a 10" driver that puts out nothing but the subbiest low end at horrifically high volumes, and a 15 that is very tight, with none of the thick high bass that alot of them have that make them sound a bit muddy to people after a tighter sound with alot of high end.

Infact a good fact to re-enforce that notion is that the worlds loudest/bassiest sub uses a 12 in driver; no "warm but without that lows and mud of a 15 but deeper sounding then 10s" there.

Anyway, the typical tweeterless 10s sound in a sealed cab is basically just not having the high end go beyond 2-3k too much and the low end not extending too deep with a bump in the mid bass (around 80hz) to make up for the lack of sub lows, something I think is to do with the way the cabs are designed. You can easily just curb your low end EQ, highlight the mid bass and then pad your mid driver a little bit and then cut some higher end above 3k.

If your after the "10s sound" you don't want a tweeter either so you want a 2 way not a 3 way design too.
 
#11
Once you have your tens crossed over under 800 Hz or so, a lot of the identifying distinctions between them and the 3015LF have vanished. What you distinguish largely in a two-way enclosure with a mid driver, is the mid driver. The woofer itself is contributing its fullness or lack thereof, but the mid cone is a lot of the character we hear.

But one distinction remains: for a few seconds play your bass with some lows dialed in, into a full actual 800 watts going to your beloved tens, and 800 watts to your 3015LF. The main difference you will hear is the 10s are dying or already did.
 
#13
greenboy said:
Once you have your tens crossed over under 800 Hz or so, a lot of the identifying distinctions between them and the 3015LF have vanished. What you distinguish largely in a two-way enclosure with a mid driver, is the mid driver. The woofer itself is contributing its fullness or lack thereof, but the mid cone is a lot of the character we hear.

But one distinction remains: for a few seconds play your bass with some lows dialed in, into a full actual 800 watts going to your beloved tens, and 800 watts to your 3015LF. The main difference you will hear is the 10s are dying or already did.
Click to expand...

gotcha, and you too Swami, i'm absorbing all of this. I try to be a "forward thinker" when it comes to speakers but I'd rather be an "educated forward thinker" rather than an "idiot with a dead cab"

I guess its more like I don't like the sound of a 115/tweeter design brought out by peavey/hartke/ampeg, which is probably less because of the 15" and more the way the cab is voiced.

and, come to think of it, I'm not a big fan of tweeters, my preference right now is a ported 410 with no tweet, so maybe a 3015LF/alpha 6 two way or a three way with a severely padded tweeter would give me the character I'm used to, only at much louder volumes and less weight.

my question has been answered, thanks guys. feel free to derail!
 
#14
GearHeadBassMan said:
so maybe a 3015LF/alpha 6 two way or a three way with a severely padded tweeter would give me the character I'm used to, only at much louder volumes and less weight.
Click to expand...

If you don't like tweeters, don't use one. That can be added later (do note that if executed properly the tweeter will sound a lot more integrated than it does in any two-way-with-tweeter as there will be no gap in response). Anyway: the small-format midrange driver more than takes care of any content that tens would normally give, and it'll provide that off-axis better, which has a lot of positve influence on stage mix.

But if you use an Alpha6 with a 3015LF you have chosen wrong, if you want a lot of upper midrange presence. The Alpha6 will sound subdued as it's a poor sensitivity match for such a woofer. I consider it rather muffled. That's a valid voicing for those who want a little extra definition on top of an old school fifteen tone, but it doesn't sound like that's what you are after.
 
#16
GearHeadBassMan said:
I guess its more like I don't like the sound of a 115/tweeter design brought out by peavey/hartke/ampeg, which is probably less because of the 15" and more the way the cab is voiced.
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Yeah, that's about right. A lot of these 115/tweeter cabs do have a sizable mid scoop and an annoying tweeter. Never was big on 115 cabs until I got a B-15N, so I can relate.

And I can relate to your love of 10"s. I still love a good 810 despite its flaws. But I'm still very interested in picking up a good 2-way cab in the near future, and if I could find someone who could make me an old-school looking fEarful rig, I could be talked into getting one. Too bad they're not more common with manufacturers.
 
#17
JimmyM said:
Don't do that, please. I have enough going wrong at home today without someone busting my balls about grammar :D
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I think he was correcting it for the sake of greenboy getting alot of requests to build them for people, so he doesn't make them like that (other then for himself the lucky sod), he designs them like that.

Kinda unfortunate alexclaber doesn't offer his cabs in some other finishes, I guess they're enough work in the first place, kinda the wrong side of the Pacific for you too. I'm sure you could get a local builder to make you a fearful in your beloved B-15 style :p

Gotta admit the 8x10 thing is appealing sometimes too, had a practise with my hardcore band yesterday and our bass player used an Ashdown 8x10 which I already knew sounded quite nice with an old Carlsbro 150W bass head. Barely had to turn up the volume cos the ridiculously metal bass the guy uses was so high output and there's no proper gain control just "hi" and "lo" but the thing had a really nice grind to it with the 5 way tone shape turned on the mid range setting, really deep and thick too depite that. Also for some reason scooping the EQ on the mid focus pre-eq sounded amazing, kinda odd.
 
#19
Yeah it is! But I must have missed that option on your site, didn't see any mention of it myself anyway, more pics on the site in general would be awesome but it's understandable that you have more important things to do with your time then develop your website as you say so yourself in the F.A.Q.. Would like to have a look at the vintage though, seems kinda cool, if it had a mid driver then I'd be kinda interested if I didn't already have the Berg, I know they're full range 15s but I tit around all over the stage and the upper end dispersion I get with the Berg is really good for that. A 2 Big one stack would be more then dominating enough for even myself though :p

Just realised after geeking about on your site that you probably don't have alot pictures cos alot of your cabs haven't even been produced yet...
 
#20
SwamiRob said:
I think he was correcting it for the sake of greenboy getting alot of requests to build them for people, so he doesn't make them like that (other then for himself the lucky sod), he designs them like that.
Click to expand...
You're probably right. Sorry...bad day...my 17 year old son had to have elbow surgery from a skateboarding accident at 6 am.
 

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