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An HPF has become part of my bag of tricks for a long time.
I used the bass cut circuit on my L2500 and previous G&L basses for a long time to clean up the mud.
First outboard was an Fdeck. Upgraded to a Broughton lpf/hpf
Now with it integrated in my head!
Life is good.
My tone is clean, tight and deep.
High pass everything, indeed.
I used the bass cut circuit on my L2500 and previous G&L basses for a long time to clean up the mud.
First outboard was an Fdeck. Upgraded to a Broughton lpf/hpf
Now with it integrated in my head!
Life is good.
My tone is clean, tight and deep.
High pass everything, indeed.
I was thinking in my signal chain recently. I am in all of this hpf's wave since last year:
from thinking having nothing hipassing up to realizing that I'm cascading up to 3 of these circuits.
1- Music Man 3-band eq pre: seems to be 70Hz-12dB/octave roll-off
2- Schallltechnik Vong filterung pedal: 30Hz fixed-12dB/ octave + variable 30 to 150Hz-12dB octave
3- Aguilar TH350 head: seems to have fixed at 20Hz-unknown roll-off
This endeavour forced me to adjust all my equipment by ear, knowing that my cabs are protected from somewhere in the chain. My question is: Do I have to eliminate the adjustable pedal as other 2 hpf's are already protecting? I'll try next week during rehearseals.
Second question comes from the recently "heat" discussion: @Mike Arnopol said (I think others too, before) that using "a GOOD hpf...": what is a GOOD one? 4th order?
Thanks
from thinking having nothing hipassing up to realizing that I'm cascading up to 3 of these circuits.
1- Music Man 3-band eq pre: seems to be 70Hz-12dB/octave roll-off
2- Schallltechnik Vong filterung pedal: 30Hz fixed-12dB/ octave + variable 30 to 150Hz-12dB octave
3- Aguilar TH350 head: seems to have fixed at 20Hz-unknown roll-off
This endeavour forced me to adjust all my equipment by ear, knowing that my cabs are protected from somewhere in the chain. My question is: Do I have to eliminate the adjustable pedal as other 2 hpf's are already protecting? I'll try next week during rehearseals.
Second question comes from the recently "heat" discussion: @Mike Arnopol said (I think others too, before) that using "a GOOD hpf...": what is a GOOD one? 4th order?
Thanks
- Feb 12, 2006
- 60,963
- 5
- 220,651
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
All you need is one single, effective HPF. The Vong is the most flexible, the others are fixed as their respective designers intended.
The HPF primarily affects the mechanical power handling of the speaker (in addition to the acoustic benefits)
The HPF primarily affects the mechanical power handling of the speaker (in addition to the acoustic benefits)
Yes--4th order is preferred. I talked the guys at Euphonic Audio to change their HPF on the new classic from 2cnd order. They are upping it to 3rd order, which is better. To go 4th, they would have to add a lot of circuitry .2cnd order helps, but not as much. I was the one that nudged Fdeck to up his from 2cnd to 4th.
When I said "good" I should clarify. My recommendations are based on my taste--which is not for everyone. I'm more from the Anthony Jackson school---passive pickups with only a volume control. Additional circuitry alters/degrades the signal. I'm not a pedal guy. Anything that lessens the integrity of the impact/note envelope---I don't dig. I do have active basses---for some circumstances I need the flexibility. I've found that I greatly prefer 18 volts in active preamps. I like the John East stuff. My friend Radbass showed me the difference between running it at 9 or 18 volts. I felt that the 18 volt change was noticeably better in terms of headroom/impact. So--for me--I hear a difference in using 9 volt pedals. If you're a pedal guy---some of my favorite players are--you'll likely be happy with a 9 volt hpf pedal. When implementing the HPF's in my powered cabs we went with op amps that were happy with 15 volts. They have an operating range that could use lower voltage--and we tried it--but found that we much preferred the sound using 15 volts.
There are some 9 volt hpf pedals out there that do what they're supposed to do. I haven't used them for the reasons mentioned above. But I'm obsessive to an unhealthy degree. Even a hpf that I'm not thrilled about is MUCH better than not using one. I've found that with a hpf I get at least 3db more output before fartout--it's like adding another cab!
Besides low frequency doodoo removal this is the biggest other benefit I've noticed.
Thanks @agedhorse . Just what I was thinking. Protect my cabs was the first reason, wash and improve headroom and get new tonal possibilities the second. At the moment, not my bass neither the head will dissapear from mi rig, and the pedal allows me to adjust to the room.
Thanks @Mike Arnopol I'm on the contrary of your preferences: Active pre (EBMM 3 band eq), pedals that run at 9V. I'm completely aware that 18V circuits have their pros (headroom,...). Nexts upgrades will be that route maybe (internal pres, pedals,...).
Great questions.
Question for you - did you build or buy that Vong? I ask as the web page seems construction over retail.
I wonder how it compares with the Broughton. I don't know which order the Broughton's HPF and LPF are, respectively.
I really like the functionality of the Vong's 3-way switch, and that as it has a DI, can serve as last in chain.
Don't care much for the graphics though....Holy 80s Batman.
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Please let me know if you ever want to sell that Schalltechnik Vong. It’s been a while since I did much soldering, and I was never that great at the tiny stuff like that anyway.
Hi! @Btbp . Yes, I did:
The difference between these are that the Vong has a fixed HPF @ 30Hz, and the extras (HPF switch, reverse polarity switch, DI,...). Don't know how it compares at the quality dpt., but the Broughton products have hi quality standards as someone here can asure. If you have some other questions can ask directly to the Schalltechnik 04 owner: lazarus_04
For sure, not selling this at the moment
. Not difficult to build, it last me 3 hrs and worked at first attempt. for sure, there are some people here near your area that are good at soldering and can help you.
just a follow up
Just talked to a previously mentioned speaker designer who prefers to remain nameless---
He said that ceramic magnets definitely dissipate more heat and thus will not go into thermal compression as soon as neo drivers. He sited an example of two Eminence drivers that share the same voice coil. The ceramic magnet speaker is rated at 350 watts where the neo magnet driver is rated at 250 watts. Same coil---the ceramic magnet will dissipate more heat and not go into thermal compression as soon as the neo driver. Hence the higher power rating.
Just talked to a previously mentioned speaker designer who prefers to remain nameless---
He said that ceramic magnets definitely dissipate more heat and thus will not go into thermal compression as soon as neo drivers. He sited an example of two Eminence drivers that share the same voice coil. The ceramic magnet speaker is rated at 350 watts where the neo magnet driver is rated at 250 watts. Same coil---the ceramic magnet will dissipate more heat and not go into thermal compression as soon as the neo driver. Hence the higher power rating.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 60,963
- 5
- 220,651
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Fortunately in this country we are all allowed to have different opinions, you stand by yours and I stand by mine.
Do the two drivers have the same gap height and pole piece geometry?
My in-house lab testing shows otherwise and has consistently shown otherwise since I started designing with Neo motors back when Eminence came out with the hideous series 1 motor (which was reasonably quickly discontinued in favor of the series 2)
Now, when you compare thermal compression on an SPL basis, where it's possible for an otherwise equivalent Neo driver to be as much as 3dB more efficient, the thermal compression might be MUCH less than the ceramic driver because 1/2 of the input power is required for the same SPL.
I also design around some inside/outside wound voice coils, the thermal equations are completely different because there's no layer of Kapton insulating the coil from the pole piece, and even there I see zero issues with thermal compression or magnet heating. In this case, I find that Neo outperforms ceramic by a fairly wide margin.
If there was this big problem, I would expect that the pro audio designers (of which I am one) with their test labs (which I have) would have run into this issue, but in fact it's not a big deal even with subs being powered at 1000 watts RMS or more per driver.
Answer us this... why isn't this a problem with 99.99% of the professional users out there?
Do the two drivers have the same gap height and pole piece geometry?
My in-house lab testing shows otherwise and has consistently shown otherwise since I started designing with Neo motors back when Eminence came out with the hideous series 1 motor (which was reasonably quickly discontinued in favor of the series 2)
Now, when you compare thermal compression on an SPL basis, where it's possible for an otherwise equivalent Neo driver to be as much as 3dB more efficient, the thermal compression might be MUCH less than the ceramic driver because 1/2 of the input power is required for the same SPL.
I also design around some inside/outside wound voice coils, the thermal equations are completely different because there's no layer of Kapton insulating the coil from the pole piece, and even there I see zero issues with thermal compression or magnet heating. In this case, I find that Neo outperforms ceramic by a fairly wide margin.
If there was this big problem, I would expect that the pro audio designers (of which I am one) with their test labs (which I have) would have run into this issue, but in fact it's not a big deal even with subs being powered at 1000 watts RMS or more per driver.
Answer us this... why isn't this a problem with 99.99% of the professional users out there?
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Thank you, and although not the combined HPF/LPF, I actually have the Broughton HPF, as well as other Broughton pedals, and they are indeed great quality.
But it to your point goes down to 25hz, and that extra 5hz I would think is advantageous. I would think also the Vong could be modded from 30 to 25hz.
Thanks also for the contact, didn't know he was here.
Maybe you can tweek the circuit before soldering, good idea.
@mrcbass posted a thread:
7 Things that Helped Me have a Successful Sub Gig
After my recent first sub gig, I thought I'd share some of the things that helped make it successful for me. For some this will be also-ran, but hoping that those who are on the fence wanting to do this will find some helpful guidelines here.
1. Chart prep. For my style of learning, a chart is usually helpful. Just the practice of prepping a chart helps the burn in. I've come to be able to prep and vet charts pretty quickly over the last few years and that allows me more time to actually work the songs.
2. Song prep. When you need to learn 40 new songs for next week, you need to know yourself and be able to know what you need to spend the most time on. This is a huge case for practicing what you don't know vs killing time on stuff you do because it sounds better. If you call me for a gig on Friday for a gig with 40 new to me songs for the following Saturday, I'll have about 30 hours of hands on bass time to prepare - that's less than an hour per song and there's probably a few more songs that I do know that need refreshing. You need to be able to prioritize your practice needs and spend the time where you really need it. That doesn't mean to completely ignore stuff you think you know (I believe more mistakes are made on songs we think we're ready for, but didn't refresh, then ones that are new.) Sometimes this means not spending a lot of time playing the whole song over and over, but perhaps focusing on the section that is difficult. I'll often set up a playlist on my phone, so that I can keep the songs in my ears even when I can't be doing any hands on practice.
3. Personal catalog. Over the last few years, when I prep for an audition, I ask for their entire playlist as well as an audition list. First, I want to se their overall direction (to make sure I'm interested) and second, I will create charts and do at least minimal prep on all of their songs (of course focusing on the audition list). I figure if one band is doing a song, others my be as well. This practice reduced the effort needed for #1 and #2 above. It also helps for call outs not on the list - I actually nailed a song that I've never even played with people before because it showed up on couple of prospective audition's playlist.
4. Guarded confidence. I know I'm not a great player. I consider myself a passable hack. But knowing that keeps me in check and I know how to prepare lines for a song that will make the band sound good. I can't always pull off what the original person did, but I can usually find a dumbed down line that supports the groove well. Sometimes I will add a little movement that's not there, but it's done tastefully. Bands tend to just let me do my thing.
5. Play well with others. It helps to have a near lifetime of musical experience. Though relatively new to bass (about 4.5 years), I've been playing music since I was 7 or 8. This helps me to know what is needed for any given specific situation, pretty much on the fly. "Hey, they're using dynamics - I better too!" "This is a different groove, better get in it." "This situation calls for a less (or more) busy line than I prepped." "OK, they are repeating the section solo here." etc. Flexibility and being able to read the band quickly is a very useful skill. Knowing who to follow is key (hint: the drummer is not always the anchor).
6. Communication. I'm not afraid ask for what I need to be ready for a gig/audition. Being pretty mediocre, preparation is my strength. Sure, I'll probably show up and wing it if there's no other choice, but you won't see what I can really do, so don't expect much. I also try to know as much about the gig as I can: when, where (of course) but type of room, length of gig, pay etc.
7. Gear. I have a rig that works well for anything from a living room to a medium club to anything with FOH support. It's light enough that I don't need to worry about taking it anywhere, but powerful enough to support most any gig.
I use my pedal board as a preamp (LPF/HPF really is a champ for this flexibility),
but keep it simple and do a lot of stomping. I have and always bring a backup bass and cables, even if they stay in the car.
I know we all have our own styles of learning and prepping - YMMV But I attribute these habits/processes to my ability to have pulled off my gig this weekend.
7 Things that Helped Me have a Successful Sub Gig
After my recent first sub gig, I thought I'd share some of the things that helped make it successful for me. For some this will be also-ran, but hoping that those who are on the fence wanting to do this will find some helpful guidelines here.
1. Chart prep. For my style of learning, a chart is usually helpful. Just the practice of prepping a chart helps the burn in. I've come to be able to prep and vet charts pretty quickly over the last few years and that allows me more time to actually work the songs.
2. Song prep. When you need to learn 40 new songs for next week, you need to know yourself and be able to know what you need to spend the most time on. This is a huge case for practicing what you don't know vs killing time on stuff you do because it sounds better. If you call me for a gig on Friday for a gig with 40 new to me songs for the following Saturday, I'll have about 30 hours of hands on bass time to prepare - that's less than an hour per song and there's probably a few more songs that I do know that need refreshing. You need to be able to prioritize your practice needs and spend the time where you really need it. That doesn't mean to completely ignore stuff you think you know (I believe more mistakes are made on songs we think we're ready for, but didn't refresh, then ones that are new.) Sometimes this means not spending a lot of time playing the whole song over and over, but perhaps focusing on the section that is difficult. I'll often set up a playlist on my phone, so that I can keep the songs in my ears even when I can't be doing any hands on practice.
3. Personal catalog. Over the last few years, when I prep for an audition, I ask for their entire playlist as well as an audition list. First, I want to se their overall direction (to make sure I'm interested) and second, I will create charts and do at least minimal prep on all of their songs (of course focusing on the audition list). I figure if one band is doing a song, others my be as well. This practice reduced the effort needed for #1 and #2 above. It also helps for call outs not on the list - I actually nailed a song that I've never even played with people before because it showed up on couple of prospective audition's playlist.
4. Guarded confidence. I know I'm not a great player. I consider myself a passable hack. But knowing that keeps me in check and I know how to prepare lines for a song that will make the band sound good. I can't always pull off what the original person did, but I can usually find a dumbed down line that supports the groove well. Sometimes I will add a little movement that's not there, but it's done tastefully. Bands tend to just let me do my thing.
5. Play well with others. It helps to have a near lifetime of musical experience. Though relatively new to bass (about 4.5 years), I've been playing music since I was 7 or 8. This helps me to know what is needed for any given specific situation, pretty much on the fly. "Hey, they're using dynamics - I better too!" "This is a different groove, better get in it." "This situation calls for a less (or more) busy line than I prepped." "OK, they are repeating the section solo here." etc. Flexibility and being able to read the band quickly is a very useful skill. Knowing who to follow is key (hint: the drummer is not always the anchor).
6. Communication. I'm not afraid ask for what I need to be ready for a gig/audition. Being pretty mediocre, preparation is my strength. Sure, I'll probably show up and wing it if there's no other choice, but you won't see what I can really do, so don't expect much. I also try to know as much about the gig as I can: when, where (of course) but type of room, length of gig, pay etc.
7. Gear. I have a rig that works well for anything from a living room to a medium club to anything with FOH support. It's light enough that I don't need to worry about taking it anywhere, but powerful enough to support most any gig.
I use my pedal board as a preamp (LPF/HPF really is a champ for this flexibility),
but keep it simple and do a lot of stomping. I have and always bring a backup bass and cables, even if they stay in the car.
I know we all have our own styles of learning and prepping - YMMV But I attribute these habits/processes to my ability to have pulled off my gig this weekend.
Last edited:
Not to digress the thread too much, but what do you use for charts?
Al Kraft
Supporting Member
- May 2, 2016
- 10,768
- 40,438
- Disclosures
- Mesa Boogie beta product tester and player support
IME this is a great list for how professionals approach commitments and for maximizing your potential for success at most anything in life, not just music. I'll take soemone who understands this any day over someone who is reported to be a great player, but is known for being more arrogant than professional at times.
Ok, got it, see I was replying to a reply, will ask at the source
