high pass filters vs turning the bass down

[MattZilla]

did a search after catching tidbits here and there, mostly just mentioning @fdeck 's creations, but nothing detailed.

- where in the signalpath do they go (between bass and amp, or between amp and cab)?
- who else makes them and how do they rank in usefulness?
- where do I find detailed info on fdeck's hpf's without pushing him to violating any tb rules?
- is it silly of me to think that it'd be musically useful to have one built into a morley/crybaby treadle to smoothly jump from an adjustable minimum ~30hz to an adj max ~150hz and various places inbetween?

I've only recently realized (after reading too many post advising to drop bass and crank low mids to be comfortable admitting that I only just gave it a real go) that shelving off the bottom of the bass is how some of my favorite soundscapes (live and recorded) allow both the bass to drive hard and the kick and toms to thunder and quake, which raises the next question

- are players with greenboy, barefaced and other colorless cabs covering up their rythmic partner's sweet subby goodness unless they have already crossed this bridge and either have an hpf inline or are dialling back the bass and pushing up the mids/lowmids on their amps?

- is there mention of the benefit of emphasizing the mids and low mids hiding in the stickies somewhere?

I put this here because I want the treadle hpf to be a thing that already exists.

 

[bassbrad]

I have an [sfx] microThumpinator as both a low pass filter and line driver that is first on my pedalboard signal chain. I also have another that gets used for recording sessions in conjunction with a DI, either a Countryman Type 85 or a passive DI with a Jenson transformer.
My experience is a cleaner punchier bass sound that does not challenge my amp and speakers with excessive subharmonics. It is not something you can hear or feel but your speakers will thank you.
[sfx]:micro-thumpinator

 

[J Posega]

Between your bass/ pedals and amp.

Fdeck is much cheaper than the Thumpinator and there are a few to choose from.

This is @fdeck's page for the HPFs he builds HPF-Pre, updated March 12, 2016 - hpftechllc

I know many Greenboy users have an HPF in their signal chain. Those cabs still sound yuge with an HPF taking out the subby crap.

It's not really turning down the bass, it's turning down all the sub harmonic crap that you can't hear and pushes driver to their maximum excursion before they hit max volume. The HPF gives you more headroom, and thus you can go louder. You'll be able to see the difference in the amount your speakers move.

Terms like bass, low mids, mids are too nebulous. You want to cut below at least 30hz, but some folks like theirs to cut below 40 or 50. It depends on how much bottom you want. Losing the sub-poop below 30hz helps clean things up in general though.

I don't see how a sweep able HPF would be useful, but maybe you've got a musical use for it. I keep my fdeck under my board, always on he same setting.

 

[MattStonewall]

Out of curiosity and just for the sake of argument could one technically use the Fdeck or Thumpinator between amp and cab for only one cab that cannot handle those lows while keeping another cab that can handle subs for only Meatbox use?

 

[1stnamebassist]

Just think of the fdeck as a way to make your amp more efficient. You can't hear the subharmonics but they are there basically overusing your amp. Their is a thread about the fdeck in the upright bass forums. I use an fdeck 2 when I play my ubass. Cleans it up and makes the ubass shine. The fdeck3 would be a better option for EB plus you have the option of using an adapter instead of battery only.

 

[J Posega]

Out of curiosity and just for the sake of argument could one technically use the Fdeck or Thumpinator between amp and cab for only one cab that cannot handle those lows while keeping another cab that can handle subs for only Meatbox use?

No because they aren't designed to handle that much power going through them.

You'd need to run two amps if you wanted a seperate cab for your Meatbox, anyway. Better off using a TRA cable and sending the subs to a PA.

I thought my Meetbox sounded fine going through my fdeck set to roll off below 35 hz.

 

[1stnamebassist]

Out of curiosity and just for the sake of argument could one technically use the Fdeck or Thumpinator between amp and cab for only one cab that cannot handle those lows while keeping another cab that can handle subs for only Meatbox use?

I don't know about that, but why handle the subs you can't hear or that make a setup boomy in a room?

 

[MattStonewall]

I don't know about that, but why handle the subs you can't hear or that make a setup boomy in a room?

It was just a question for sake of argument if it could be done. I wasn't sure if some pedals could handle being run in that way with speaker cables.

 

[Passinwind]

It was just a question for sake of argument if it could be done. I wasn't sure if some pedals could handle being run in that way with speaker cables.

Nope, you'd need separate power amps for each cab and then you could patch the HPF at line level.

 

[silky smoove]

I put my HPF-3 after my effects that generate low end content (most notably octave pedals) to filter out added low end before it hits my compressor and makes it work too hard on largely inaudible material.

As for using it with modern 3-way super cab designs: Unless you need the content down that low (most people don't) the cab's ability to recreate it becomes a moot point. I used my HPF-3 with my 15/6 all the time. Also of note: Those cabs are not colorless as you describe. They're simply a different color (for better or worse depending on your situation).

 

[Coolhandjjl]

Speaker outputs can run as high as 70 volts.

Pedal effects are designed to have much lower signals pass through them, typically in the sub 1 volt range.

Devices for the effects loop, or in between the pre-amp and power amp (line level) range from .7 to 1.4V, handling spikes of up to 1.8 or 2 volts perhaps. Some pedal effects will handle this range.

 

[MattZilla]

Thanks for all of the info guys!

 

[alexclaber]

- are players with greenboy, barefaced and other colorless cabs covering up their rythmic partner's sweet subby goodness unless they have already crossed this bridge and either have an hpf inline or are dialling back the bass and pushing up the mids/lowmids on their amps?

In a lot of genres the default sound involves the bass guitar having a much greater quantity of true lows than the drum kit, with the kick having a lot of energy at 80Hz. I wrote an article on this called 'what is bottom'.

 

[MattZilla]

In a lot of genres the default sound involves the bass guitar having a much greater quantity of true lows than the drum kit, with the kick having a lot of energy at 80Hz. I wrote an article on this called 'what is bottom'.

could you please link this article? I've only noticed it in niche dance music so far, I'd really like to both learn more about this and discover more genres.

 

[alexclaber]

could you please link this article? I've only noticed it in niche dance music so far, I'd really like to both learn more about this and discover more genres.

I don't think I'm allowed to according to the CUP. It's in the technical information section of the Barefaced site.

 

[sratas]

I'm a barefaced super cab user, and I usually put a sfx micro thumpinator (cuts wildly below 30 hz) in the chain for indoor use. I love to keep my bass as tight as I can. I know barefaced are engineered to be pushed even in the 20-30 hz, it's my preference only. The cab still sounds huge but I can avoid onstage mud in bad environments.

In all honesty, I think I like the big baby 2 mainly because of the warm musical and faithful reproduction of mids and highs, this was one of the reasons I bought it. Barefaced are capable of massive lows but this is only a part of the whole picture.

Outdoor....well, I usually do not use an HPF because there is no problem with mud

 

[Bill Whitehurst]

Back to the original question.
Lets say you have a speaker cabinet that sounds fine
as long as you don't play very low or turn up the bass.
So you turn down the bass and it stops farting out.
It also sounds weak and thin.

Add a HPF to that, to cut out some lows and all the freqs
below what you are using and you can turn up the bass,
sound much better and still get by with a marginal
speaker cabinet.

Magic!

 

[Tractorr]

Not to change the subject, but it seems odd that there aren't many amps that have a built in HPF before the pre. There may be some but none that I know of.

 

[NKBassman]

It may seem counter-intuitive to be cutting bass from a bass instrument, but I really like using a HPF. I do it all the time when recording/mixing (especially on guitars, shhhhhhhhhh don't tell my guitar player), and recently picked up a Broughton HPF from @Azure Skies for my pedal board. I have it first in my chain after my tuner, but lately I've even been thinking of moving it before my tuner. Anyone try this? Would it make a difference in tuning accuracy?

IMO, HPFs are valuable for a few reasons...

1) It helps clean up mud from other effects. By taking out the extreme low end <30HZ or so (or sometimes even higher), it's really helped clean up the response of all my other pedals down the chain, and overall makes everything a lot clearer and punchier. I can run higher levels of compression without it spazing out and clamping down on every note, and my Barbershop overdrive also responds a lot nicer, so I can run higher levels of drive without it getting farty.

2) Increased headroom from your amp. Low-wattage tube amps especially will benefit. It takes a lot more power to amplify low frequencies than high frequencies. This is why bass amps typically have 10x more power than guitar amps. By filtering out the sub lows, your amp is not wasting valuable power trying to reproduce those frequencies which a) your cabinet probably can't reproduce, and b) the human ear can't distinguish anyway. Don't quote me on 2(b).

3) Protect your cabinets. Especially from sub-producing effects like sub-octaves and envelope filters, or if you do lots of slapping. Low frequencies will really get your speakers moving, and by cutting out content you can't hear anyway, it's just a little added safety net to keep your speakers happy.

 

[NKBassman]

did a search after catching tidbits here and there, mostly just mentioning @fdeck 's creations, but nothing detailed.

- where in the signalpath do they go (between bass and amp, or between amp and cab)?
- who else makes them and how do they rank in usefulness?
- where do I find detailed info on fdeck's hpf's without pushing him to violating any tb rules?
- is it silly of me to think that it'd be musically useful to have one built into a morley/crybaby treadle to smoothly jump from an adjustable minimum ~30hz to an adj max ~150hz and various places inbetween?

1) Between bass and amp. Some prefer it at the end of the effects chain, but I put mine at the beginning of my effects chain since I don't have any sub-producing effects, just overdrive and compression, both of which benefit from the HPF as I mentioned in my last post.
2) The Broughton Audio HPF (@Azure Skies) has a fixed slope with adjustable corner frequency between 30-200 Hz or so. I currently have my dial set at about 11-12:00, so presumably around 80-100 Hz. But the slope of the cut is on the shallower side, so I don't really find it lacking too much bass.
The [sfx] Micro Thumpinator has a steeper slope at 20-30 Hz but no adjustability.
The fDeck is essentially a combination of both, a fixed HPF at 20-30 HZ, and a second filter with an adjustable corner frequency.
3) PM him. Or use the Search function. Or ask a question specifically about what you want to know so someone else can answer.
4) For me it's a Set and Forget thing. I don't usually adjust it that much. Depending on the slope of the filter, and your amp/cabs, you might not even hear much of an audible difference until you start getting up to 80-100 Hz anyway.

I've only recently realized (after reading too many post advising to drop bass and crank low mids to be comfortable admitting that I only just gave it a real go) that shelving off the bottom of the bass is how some of my favorite soundscapes (live and recorded) allow both the bass to drive hard and the kick and toms to thunder and quake, which raises the next question

There is a significant difference between a shelf filter and a high pass filter. Most bass amps use shelving filters.
A shelf filter boosts or cuts all frequencies below the "corner" frequency by a relatively equal amount, the resulting frequency plot ends up looking flat, like... a shelf. But you still have frequency content in the sub-bass.
A High Pass Filter literally means that all frequencies above the corner freq are "passed", and all freq below are cut by an increasing amount. The cut increases with decreasing frequency, resulting in a sloped line and very little sub-bass content.

- are players with greenboy, barefaced and other colorless cabs covering up their rythmic partner's sweet subby goodness unless they have already crossed this bridge and either have an hpf inline or are dialling back the bass and pushing up the mids/lowmids on their amps?

I use a fEarful 15/6 at my jam space. It's a lot of low end content to pump into a small room and can easily overwhelm everything. I like to use a fairly aggressive HPF cut and then boost the bass back at the amp.
The Drive control on my Aguilar TH500 also acts as a HPF, so I really shouldn't have much going on below 30 Hz at all.