High priced power cords, koolaid?

[Mike Arnopol]

Hey guys---sorry about being a weenie!

The only reason I made a comment in this thread is that yes---most of these products are of questionable value. But occasionally something comes along that is would appear to be snake oil may not be.

I used to piss off my audiophile friends doing the "romex" trick. Even something like Romex can do some pretty cool things---it definitely sounded better than one $2k speaker cable. But then there was a $50 cable that sounded better than Romex.

I guess I stepped in because I'm VERY jaded as far as most of the "miracle" stuff. I played on a bunch of recordings that won awards with some of the audiophile magazines. Guys had sent me gear to try just being nice. $600 solid silver interconnect. $2k speaker cable. Interconnect cable that could be used in pro audio. $75/ft.

Bottom line--almost all of it didn't sound any better than cheaper stuff. But there were some that were noticeably better.

My whole point is----yes---most of this stuff is overpriced snake oil. But occasionally something pops up that's not.

 

[Bruins29]

Mike, how many double blind tests have you done with these various products?

 

[R Baer]

Mike, how many double blind tests have you done with these various products?

Mike, run now while you still have a chance!

 

[Roscoe East]

It is snake oil when someone takes a $5-10 power cord from Newark or Mouser and surrounds it with a bunch of hype and TechFlex braided sleeving, then sells it for $150.

You forgot the most important "add-on"

 

[Coolhandjjl]

I recently read an article on the state of recorded music. Here's some things I gleaned: Listening tests, A/B, double blind, etc., are really, really hard to do accurately and with a good degree of repeatability. The sample of people who have trained ears or know what to listen for is quite small, so right away you have a bias. One can't do listening tests very long as ears get fatigued, IE even the exact same test performed right away, then 15 minutes later, can cause the listener to evaluate things differently. Also, if anything in a test seems to sound louder in any range, the brain perceives it to be 'better' even if the thing that was louder was an otherwise offensive tone. I don't doubt peoples claims, but there is probably much more going on than meets the eye (or ear). Maybe some statisticians or PhD's can weigh in on this.

 

[KJung]

Mike, how many double blind tests have you done with these various products?

Since we are talking about science, really a single blind test is what is called for in this situation. Double blind is typically used in a drug clinical trial, where you can manufacturer a placebo pill (or shot) to look exactly like the 'real drug'. Since the person 'giving the pill' is also evaluating the patient, it is key that there is no bias on either side. There are other reasons also, that are beyond the issues in this thread.

For anyone that is interested, a single blind 'triad/triangle difference test' is typically used to determine if there is a 'real' difference between two products.

Again, pretty obvious that there is NO basic science that supports this particular issue, so probably not worth even testing. Again, the risk of a type I error is minimal (i.e., spending $200 on a cable that does the same thing as a $10 cable), so not even really worth doing.

 

[KJung]

I recently read an article on the state of recorded music. Here's some things I gleaned: Listening tests, A/B, double blind, etc., are really, really hard to do accurately and with a good degree of repeatability. The sample of people who have trained ears or know what to listen for is quite small, so right away you have a bias. One can't do listening tests very long as ears get fatigued, IE even the exact same test performed right away, then 15 minutes later, can cause the listener to evaluate things differently. Also, if anything in a test seems to sound louder in any range, the brain perceives it to be 'better' even if the thing that was louder was an otherwise offensive tone. I don't doubt peoples claims, but there is probably much more going on than meets the eye (or ear). Maybe some statisticians or PhD's can weigh in on this.

+1 Again, single blind is really the design here. Typically (for example in the food industry work that I do), a trained taste panel is used, and a single respondent would do a minimum number of comparisons in the typical 'triangle/triad difference test', eliminating taste (or in this case) ear fatigue. The typical statistical power tables are used to determine the number of test subjects needed to determine a significant difference (i.e., a non-chance 'choosing' of the 'better cable', in this case, in the triad comparison design). Sample size is usually around 100 tasters/listeners.

Edit: Basically, the triangle difference tests involves each subject to identify which of two products presented within three pairs is 'different' within each pairing.... A/A, A/B A/A, randomly presented. This provides a nice baseline of 'error' (saying the same products are different) versus 'real effect' (saying the different products are different). You can further add survey questions, etc. to determine if the 'difference' is to the positive or negative.

 

[nostatic]

But Ken, I took some basses, recorded them and put the mp3 files up on the interwebs that prove [insert favorite TB topic here].

And everyone knows the cool kids are doing it triple blind these days...

 

[Woodstockz]

Hey guys---sorry about being a weenie!

The only reason I made a comment in this thread is that yes---most of these products are of questionable value. But occasionally something comes along that is would appear to be snake oil may not be.

I used to piss off my audiophile friends doing the "romex" trick. Even something like Romex can do some pretty cool things---it definitely sounded better than one $2k speaker cable. But then there was a $50 cable that sounded better than Romex.

I guess I stepped in because I'm VERY jaded as far as most of the "miracle" stuff. I played on a bunch of recordings that won awards with some of the audiophile magazines. Guys had sent me gear to try just being nice. $600 solid silver interconnect. $2k speaker cable. Interconnect cable that could be used in pro audio. $75/ft.

Bottom line--almost all of it didn't sound any better than cheaper stuff. But there were some that were noticeably better.

My whole point is----yes---most of this stuff is overpriced snake oil. But occasionally something pops up that's not.

It's all cool.

When something new pops up, you have to look at it as an opportunity for a challenge. At the end, you either find something really interesting, or a guy behind the curtain.

 

[Big Brother]

I saw an ad for some of these being endorsed by some pretty big name players. Anybody ever a/b test these? Thoughts?

The wiring on the other side of the wall plug is a thin brass strip connected to 5-50 year old 12 gauge copper.

Even if the laws of physics were suspended and it made a difference, it is pointless.

 

[KJung]

But Ken, I took some basses, recorded them and put the mp3 files up on the interwebs that prove [insert favorite TB topic here].

And everyone knows the cool kids are doing it triple blind these days...

Hey, showing/demonstrating to others why you like something is useful also. Triple blind is tough since I have a hard time blindfolding my cat.

The triangle tests are pretty good though, and pretty easy (although getting a trained test panel is a bit of a chore). Many corporations/companies use them to determine if:

a) spending more money on ingredients/components are worth it (i.e., if a trained test panel can't determine a difference, then it isn't there in a real sense for the general consumer), or...

b) cutting ingredient/component costs will cause harm to the product in the market place.

 

[Thor]

Ok guys, don't get weird...lol.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f43/power-cable-bass-amp-question-107386/

Note jondogs post right in the beginning. That pretty much says it all for me.

Since this has all been thrashed around for years, I will probably close this thread shortly unless evidence of some astounding new miracle of scientific research has deduced that the voltage drop issue alluded to by Mr. Baer is invalid, or that there is any reason to expect improved performance
over the 14ga and 8 dollar cost level he mentioned as well.

For the record, Mark (ahem) Reccord's comments in that thread are pretty well taken. You may find that thread highly amusing and entertaining, as well as the Tara Labs power cord challenge thread started by our friend Tim Cole some years back in the recording forum. Link: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f43/tara-labs-cable-challenge-109162/


You are going to have to work hard to beat out that Classic TB Hall of Fame thread with prockenlang, who is shamelessly hawking his miracle cable much to the disgust of certain other forum members. The ensuing discussion is a shining example one of the TB forums finest years as is Mr. Coles thread.

 

[Big Brother]

Ok guys, don't get weird...lol.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f43/power-cable-bass-amp-question-107386/
Since this has all been thrashed around for years, I will probably close this thread shortly unless evidence of some astounding new miracle of scientific research has deduced that the voltage drop issue alluded to by Mr. Baer is invalid, or that there is any reason to expect improved performance
over the 14ga and 8 dollar cost level he mentioned as well.

We can't rule out the fragments of the Russian meteorite, we simply do not know the energy profiles of these space fragments until they can be tested in a proper lab.

To close the thread without testing these fragments for their musical power cord effects first would be premature. They come from space, I don't know how they can't be better.

 

[David Jayne]

I disagree with this, as it depends on the gauge of wire being used and the wattage of your amplifier. Hook up a cheap Radio Shack 18ga power cord to a 1000 watt amp and then A/B it with a good quality 14ga cord. I've done this numerous time and the difference is audible.

I don't think anybody's arguing about that. You must have enough conductor for the job. A 1000 watt amp might draw in the neighborhood of 10-12 amps when it's working really, really hard and 14 ga wire will handle this just fine. And that's all that matters.
If somebody's shipping that amp with an 18 ga cable, well, now we've got something to talk about.

 

[Thor]

I plug my regular old power cable into an $8 power strip that usually has 4 or 5 other things plugged into it. That's often plugged into a 50' extension cord. No wonder I suck.

You'd probably suck less with a 25 foot cable. Ya know, voltage drop and all.

 

[Coolhandjjl]

It's a mess here where I play. I have orange extension cords going here, there, everywhere. If the extension cord is burnt at the prongs from arcing, I toss it. Those will sound inferior and be unsafe as well. But good cords do last and don't arc when installed properly. But if I had a few extra bucks, I would rather pay an electrician to make me a sub panel with several outlets that has a 6ga cord that goes into a 50A 220 outlet on the wall. That way, the outlets are close to my gear and there are no extension cords to trip over. That's what professional lighting crews use that do film productions. Keep the outlets as close to the gear as possible. (Except no 50A outlet, they clamp the sub panels' feed right onto the busses in the building's main breaker box.)

Local building codes also come into play. In my area, only extension cords that have factory molded plugs are allowed. Pretty much limits me to those orange ones. During my buildings semi-annual fire inspections, the fire marshals do look and point out these things. Even temporary installations get their attention. That also ties into my building's liability/hazard insurance.

 

[Thor]

We can't rule out the fragments of the Russian meteorite, we simply do not know the energy profiles of these space fragments until they can be tested in a proper lab.

To close the thread without testing these fragments for their musical power cord effects first would be premature. They come from space, I don't know how they can't be better.

I hadn't considered that.

 

[Chef]

This is as much good sense as I've ever seen anyone print about his whole mess.

You kids want to have this debate again, have fun.
I've closed several of these, and I'll be happy to do it again if this spins out.

I disagree with this, as it depends on the gauge of wire being used and the wattage of your amplifier. Hook up a cheap Radio Shack 18ga power cord to a 1000 watt amp and then A/B it with a good quality 14ga cord. I've done this numerous time and the difference is audible. I'm in no way endorsing $100 power cables, but there is a point at which the size and quality of the cable can be insufficient to do the job and one will notice a difference in the performance of the amp when switching to a properly sized, decent quality cord. I've also found that there can be quite a difference in the quality of the contacts in the connector between various cords. Undersized wire and bad connections = bad performance.

 

[staccatogrowl]

The tensile strength of lower-gauge power cords allows important multi use. For example, if your car goes "spins out" and goes into a ditch, you can tie the thicker power cord to your bumper, so your buddy can pull you out.

Keep this in mind: If you have a Monster truck, then you must use a Monster cord.

 

[nutdog]

You'd probably suck less with a 25 foot cable. Ya know, voltage drop and all.

Nah, just a more powerful and defined suck. It's kind of heavy duty.