High priced power cords, koolaid?

[Interceptor]

Mike - I think we might be on the same page.

Proof is in the use. I'm wary of any opinion that is based soley on objective measurement.

Remember Julian Hirsch?

 

[Woodstockz]

+1 in general. I think it is a safety issue with long power runs if I remember correctly.

Why is the major concern in choosing the correct gauge wire the amount of Amps a that a device is pulling? Two reasons. 1 - Heat, because of resistance, and 2 - voltage drop, also because of resistance.

The heat is a safety issue. That is why most power strips are only 6' long. The voltage drop affects your rail voltage for unregulated outputs in your power supply. Also why most power strips are only 6' long.

Voltage drop is a concern if you do the math or make measurements. Until then, you can only assume, and what happens when you assume? Then you never get to the bottom of the problem. [Thought I was going to be a smart Alec, didn't you. ] You have to do the homework, otherwise you are just guessing.

Looking at the whole system, not just individual modules, please note any flaws in my logic.

Will a small wire have a greater resistance than a large wire?
Yes.

Will the power supply have greater Voltage sag with the smaller wire than the large one WHEN THE LOAD DRAWS HEAVY CURRENT?
Yes. At least the designers of our bench power supplies know that.

Is the difference in power supply sag under load measurable between the two conditions?
Yes.

Can you tell the difference in a bass amplifier, which uses frequencies near to DC. Is it audible? Yes again. Otherwise, what Mike heard was placebo.

Not to be argumentative, but I did this analysis over 30 years ago. I had to go through the same analysis in order to understand the problem. The only difference is that the end product after the power supply here is audio, and the end product 30 years ago after the power supply was different.

Anyways, forget the hyped stuff. Newark or Mouser for industrial grade is good enough. Not expensive, and good quality.

 

[Woodstockz]

We're talking about bass amps right? Hardly a critical application. If expensive power cables made that much difference, I'm sure you'd find well-informed owners/operators of medical, communications and security services queuing up for them. Are they?

We use industrial grade stuff from Newark or Mouser in communications.

 

[Woodstockz]

Originally Posted by KrisHayes
"You will hear no difference on the gauge of power cable."

On wire which is equal to or over the capacity requirements for the application.

Exactly.

 

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Sometimes art wins out over science.

Science and art are not two distinct things, science is an art.

You guys crack me up. I could care less about whether any one here believes me.

I play more varied gigs on electric and upright than almost anyone involved in this conversation. I did not WANT this to sound better. I used it extensively on gigs here also.I rarely bring it out--the difference is there but I tend to leave cables at gigs!

...

When I tried that power cable I knew off the bat that it would be "snake oil". But EXPERIENCE proved that to not be true. But apparently---real world experience is much less valid than measured data!

I couldn't care less how prolific someone is, it hardly gives a greater weight in this kind of debate.

If the real world experience doesn't show any measured difference, the difference is not in the real world, but a psychological modification of the experience.

Cables which are part of the signal chain can and do have an impact on the sound. A subtractive impact on the signal which may or may not be noticable, one of the more obvious offenders being many of the "bass specific" cables.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

They are both really important.

But for a player---the bottom line is
1.does it sound better?
2. Does it function better?
3.Does it make the playing experience more enjoyable?

I can appreciate the need for data---if I want to design a speaker cab---I need data as a starting point. And I know the data well enough to have an idea what it will sound like.

For someone to say---"you've gotta try this driver---it sounds awesome" is totally meaningless to me.

But if I consistently find the playing experience more enjoyable and the only variable changed is one item---that's enough science for me!

Or maybe it was the Kool Aid that I've been drinking!

 

[Woodstockz]

You guys crack me up. I could care less about whether any one here believes me.

...

When I tried that power cable I knew off the bat that it would be "snake oil". But EXPERIENCE proved that to not be true. But apparently---real world experience is much less valid than measured data!

I believe you 100%, which is why I'm even bothering to spend so much time explaining this. But I'm done now.

 

[nutdog]

I plug my regular old power cable into an $8 power strip that usually has 4 or 5 other things plugged into it. That's often plugged into a 50' extension cord. No wonder I suck.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Science and art are not two distinct things, science is an art.




I couldn't care less how prolific someone is, it hardly gives a greater weight in this kind of debate.

If the real world experience doesn't show any measured difference, the difference is not in the real world, but a psychological modification of the experience.

Cables which are part of the signal chain can and do have an impact on the sound. A subtractive impact on the signal which may or may not be noticable, one of the more obvious offenders being many of the "bass specific" cables.

I think that real world experience in the application that something is intended is a far more powerful tool for making a comparison.

Back to the hobbyists----

 

[Bruins29]

But EXPERIENCE proved that to not be true. But apparently---real world experience is much less valid than measured data!

How many double blind tests have you been a part of?

 

[i_got_a_mohawk]

I think that real world experience in the application that something is intended is a far more powerful tool for making a comparison.

Back to the hobbyists----

Ah, how aspiring to see the attitudes and standards held by "pro" musicians.

Very good sir.

 

[singlemalt]

Emperor's new clothes comes to mind.

I use scrap romex wire for my cab projects internal wiring. Pull the black and the white wires out of the outer wrap. I always have some laying around from remodel projects.

 

[seamonkey]

When I tried that power cable I knew off the bat that it would be "snake oil". But EXPERIENCE proved that to not be true. But apparently---real world experience is much less valid than measured data!

Take X number of people and do a double blind test. A real one where the tester and subject don't know which is which. Jot down the results.

Take measurements of the gear and correlate it to the blind tests.

You man in fact find the majority can't tell a difference, but some portion of X people maybe can hear a difference somehow. Some people can hear things differently than other. But it's going to show up in the measurements, or you've measured wrong. Audio is not so complex that even minute subtle things can't be measured.

If your goal is to prove measurements are wrong, then your measurements will probably be wrong. So don't even bother.

 

[Neek]

Jaco only needed a $10 cable.

 

[nostatic]

But if I consistently find the playing experience more enjoyable and the only variable changed is one item---that's enough science for me!

When machines are playing the music, then the plots will rule the day. As long as humans are involved, many bets are off.

The "science" zealots are often as bad as the snake oil salespeople. And I say that as someone who likely has more scientific training than 99% of the people on TB. Took me a long time to recover from it

 

[Woodstockz]

Originally Posted by Woodstockz
"What would Richard Feynman do?... He would set up an experiment."

Actually, he probably would have preferred to go play bongos and hang out with women of questionable repute. Sometimes art wins out over science.

He would play bongos and hang out with women of questionable repute, while performing complex quantum physics calculations on a cocktail napkin.

 

[KevInDaBassment]

Take X number of people and do a double blind test. A real one where the tester and subject don't know which is which. Jot down the results.

Take measurements of the gear and correlate it to the blind tests.

You man in fact find the majority can't tell a difference, but some portion of X people maybe can hear a difference somehow. Some people can hear things differently than other. But it's going to show up in the measurements, or you've measured wrong. Audio is not so complex that even minute subtle things can't be measured.

If your goal is to prove measurements are wrong, then your measurements will probably be wrong. So don't even bother.

+ 1

There are plenty of objective, sound methods for testing this but the problem is there IS no difference from what we can measure and test objectively...so people have to resort to "mojo" or "magic" or something that you can "...only hear if you know what to listen for/have good taste." (or in some people's opinion, can AFFORD it ), when we are talking about something concrete and testable, which is flow of electricity.

In my opinion, a good test would be playing a pre-recorded sound byte or signal feed into a bass amp with a mic in front of the cab that runs to an audio interface recording to a PC. Change only the power cable the second time around, record, and see if there is any change. Do it 3 times for each type of cable and then try one with a 3rd type of cable (cheap, really thin kind) and see what the results are. Since the mic will be picking up whatever is actually coming out, we can put this BS to rest.

....anybody want to buy/donate a $2k power cable?

 

[Woodstockz]

+ 1

There are plenty of objective, sound methods for testing this but the problem is there IS no difference from what we can measure and test objectively...so people have to resort to "mojo" or "magic" or something that you can "...only hear if you know what to listen for/have good taste." (or in some people's opinion, can AFFORD it ), when we are talking about something concrete and testable, which is flow of electricity.

In my opinion, a good test would be playing a pre-recorded sound byte or signal feed into a bass amp with a mic in front of the cab that runs to an audio interface recording to a PC. Change only the power cable the second time around, record, and see if there is any change. Do it 3 times for each type of cable and then try one with a 3rd type of cable (cheap, really thin kind) and see what the results are. Since the mic will be picking up whatever is actually coming out, we can put this BS to rest.

....anybody want to buy/donate a $2k power cable?

$2K for a power cable!!! I really should be re-selling those Newark power cables, and I would only charge $1500. My engineering professors would love me, but I'm really disappointing my business professors.

When you do the test, make sure that you crank the volume to 11 in order to stress the power supply, monitor the rails, and use a 5 string and bang away on the low B-string.

 

[R Baer]

You will hear no difference on the gauge of power cable.

I disagree with this, as it depends on the gauge of wire being used and the wattage of your amplifier. Hook up a cheap Radio Shack 18ga power cord to a 1000 watt amp and then A/B it with a good quality 14ga cord. I've done this numerous time and the difference is audible. I'm in no way endorsing $100 power cables, but there is a point at which the size and quality of the cable can be insufficient to do the job and one will notice a difference in the performance of the amp when switching to a properly sized, decent quality cord. I've also found that there can be quite a difference in the quality of the contacts in the connector between various cords. Undersized wire and bad connections = bad performance. For our amp, I settled on a really well made 14ga cord, that has good flexibility and very nice connectors that grip the wall outlet and IEC receptacle well. They cost me about $8, which is a lot compared to the cords that most companies ship with their amps.

 

[KevInDaBassment]

$2K for a power cable!!! I really should be re-selling those Newark power cables, and I would only charge $1500. My engineering professors would love me, but I'm really disappointing my business professors.

When you do the test, make sure that you crank the volume to 11 in order to stress the power supply, monitor the rails, and use a 5 string and bang away on the low B-string.

We just need to figure out whether to use ss watts or tube watts, make sure we aren't underpowering that speaker cabinet, and that the 5 string we play is good for metal....everyone knows metal music puts the most stress on power cables since it is teh awesomest.

We better try it with a 4 string too...since Jaco only needed 4 then we'll probably need to cover all the bases