Hiwatt bass amps

[KramerBassFan]

Are we looking at the same pictures? I don't see any terminal strips, and it ain't even close to point to point wiring.
Hiwatts use turret board construction.
Terminal strip construction uses terminal strips, and point to point is, well, exactly what is says; "point to point".



The big money is for the skilled labor/workmanship, and top shelf components. That, and for persons in the US, the exchange rate.
Peavey makes great gear for the money, but the pictures tell the story.
The VB2 is a mass produced, inexpensive toy by comparison, and looks it. Just another "throw away" amp; in 20 years when those flimsy proprietary PCB's aren't available anymore they'll probably be almost worthless.
The hand wired stuff will just keep chugging along, easily repairable by any competent solder jockey armed with a schematic - AND... Undoubtedly still be bringing premium money on the open market.

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with the Peavey, it just is what it is. As far as being successful as a MI manufacturer, Hiwatt isn't even in the same universe as Peavey. Hands down Peavey is a shining star success story in the very competitive MI world.
But to stay on topic relative to your post; the gear is meant to appeal to limited budgets. I imagine "affordable" is the word Peavey's marketing department would use, but “cheap” is the operative word I’d use; not to be derogatory, just as an accurate descriptor.
Regretfully a “cheap” price point almost has to be achieved by use of “cheap” construction methods and materials.
Of course, they are such a low price point that vs. a DR201 you could buy three of them and still have enough money left over to get a couple of nice cabs! You could keep two as backups in case you had an on road failure, or to use when the original one gives up it's magic smoke.
All in all, IMO the VB2 probably makes much more sense for the average "casual player".

But comparing it from a quality aspect to a Hiwatt (or Reeves, /13, Handwired Marshall, etc.) is just plain ludicrous.

+1

We're talking about a british amplifier, that was hand wired by a gentleman who wired british munitions and equipment, versus a piece of electronic equipment built by a machine to meet a certain price limit.


And, IMHO, the fact it has EL34's doesn't immediately make all the much of a comparison to a british amp.

Does an Ampeg SVT (6550's) sound similar to a Marshall Major converted to 6550's?

How about an Ampeg B25 (dual 6L6) versus a Mesa Boogie 50 watter?

Then again, i've never bought the fact that the different sounds of an amplifier are based on their Power amp tubes. But hey, my opinion!

 

[Bigjohn]

Hmmm ... British ... a gentleman.
Who are Peavey? Mississippi rogues and scoundrels? ;-)
It's all good. The less other players use VB2, the better I sound.
I do think EL34 sound different from 6550, 6L6, etc. I think they all have a different sound.
And FYI, B25 is 7027 (not 6L6).

+1

We're talking about a british amplifier, that was hand wired by a gentleman who wired british munitions and equipment, versus a piece of electronic equipment built by a machine to meet a certain price limit.


And, IMHO, the fact it has EL34's doesn't immediately make all the much of a comparison to a british amp.

Does an Ampeg SVT (6550's) sound similar to a Marshall Major converted to 6550's?

How about an Ampeg B25 (dual 6L6) versus a Mesa Boogie 50 watter?

Then again, i've never bought the fact that the different sounds of an amplifier are based on their Power amp tubes. But hey, my opinion!

 

[KramerBassFan]

Hmmm ... British ... a gentleman.
Who are Peavey? Mississippi rogues and scoundrels? ;-)
It's all good. The less other players use VB2, the better I sound.
I do think EL34 sound different from 6550, 6L6, etc. I think they all have a different sound.
And FYI, B25 is 7027 (not 6L6).

Ahhh, i knew that was wrong as i typed it... what's that small wattage Dual 6L6 ampeg again? oh well.... But yes, you get my point? I'll have to agree, but, is it the circuit that sounds different, or the tube itself? I've never really done a comparison test, so i can't really say.

 

[B-string]

Tube types do sound different from each other and from different manufacturers. Personally I never liked the sound of EL34/6CA7s for bass amps. Have not heard Peaveys take on the device.
As for "cheap PCBs" failing after so many years? The fiberglass PCBs will be around a lot longer than the metal chassis in the end. I've repaired quite easily burnt traces on PCBs, usually do to someone using a 200 watt soldering gun on them (which will usually destroy the component being replaced also no matter how the amp is constructed).

 

[Bigjohn]

It's the circuit and the tube. But the tubes are a very big determinant.
Hiwatts (at least the one used in the late 1960's early 70's by the British bands - the 100W) were el34 based amps and sounded like it. To me, the el34 is the warmest sounding tube. But it doesn't have to be distorted if designed into the right circuit, as evidenced by old Hiwatts and especially the VB2.
The VB2 sounds more than a little like a Hiwatt, but frankly, IMO it's WAY better. The tone controls are way more responsive and flexible, allowing more usable tones, the amp has all the modern features and its way more powerful with more headroom. That's what I like the most - it's an el34 amp with major headroom.
The Hiwatt are VERY well made and look about the best cosmetically, no doubt. I love old Hiwatts.
I know Hiwatt. My old guitar player used to have a full Hiwatt 8x12 stack. I recorded my bass using it when I was between amps.
But the VB2 smokes it hands down. No question.
If the VB2 circuit, lock-stock-and-barrel, were in a Diezel or Bogner or Mesa chassis and box, it would easily sell for more than 3X what it does.

Ahhh, i knew that was wrong as i typed it... what's that small wattage Dual 6L6 ampeg again? oh well.... But yes, you get my point? I'll have to agree, but, is it the circuit that sounds different, or the tube itself? I've never really done a comparison test, so i can't really say.

 

[Bigjohn]

Yeah, I don't get the "cheap PCB" thing either. Even a worst case scenario (smoked trace) is easy to jumper and fix.
As long as the board is designed with adequate Cu weight, a properly layed out PCB is superior to terminals, turrets, etc.

Tube types do sound different from each other and from different manufacturers. Personally I never liked the sound of EL34/6CA7s for bass amps. Have not heard Peaveys take on the device.
As for "cheap PCBs" failing after so many years? The fiberglass PCBs will be around a lot longer than the metal chassis in the end. I've repaired quite easily burnt traces on PCBs, usually do to someone using a 200 watt soldering gun on them (which will usually destroy the component being replaced also no matter how the amp is constructed).

 

[James Hart]

a properly layed out PCB is superior to terminals, turrets, etc.

as an ex PCB draftsman/designer for .mil job shops who now is a wannabe tube amp designer/builder, I respectfully disagree.

Yes PCB done right isn't cheap in anyway and yes for precision electronics applications wire can't touch it. Like I said, I dig Peavey stuff, I was a proud owner of a tweed Classic 400 beast of a tube head (I even hosted a website dedicated the C400) and the new Peavey tube heads are definitely worth their money.

...but from a troubleshooting / repairing / maintaining / building stand point, give me turret boards ANY day.

 

[B-string]

Different strokes? While building my own prototypes I'm not going to layout a PCB, it would have to be something I plan on mass producing. I find turret boards no easier and maybe more confusing for troubleshooting. I find mil spec assembly on turrets much more of a challenge.
Oh yes, as a retired prototype engineer and active amp repair tech.
Lead dress is greatly simplified with PCBs, I've spent enough time with an orange stick after a sloppy previous repair. Not to mention sucking up globs of solder looking for bad solder joints?

 

[edbass]

If the VB2 circuit, lock-stock-and-barrel, were in a Diezel or Bogner or Mesa chassis and box, it would easily sell for more than 3X what it does.

Maybe, but only until the word got out that they were just cheap PCB "toy amps" stuffed into a Diezel or Bogner or Mesa box.
I figure that would take about 10 minutes on sites like thegearpage.net.

If the Peavey works for your situation, more power to you. As I’ve posted, IMO Peavey makes great gear for the money, and fits the practicality/needs/budgets of far many more players than the high dollar handcrafted gear.

A Ford Mustang GT isn't in the same league as a Porsche 911 either, but IMO it's a great car, a good value for the money, and without question from a practical standpoint far better suits the budget restrictions of a much larger percentage of the car buying public.

Not everyone takes their equipment seriously enough to throw "top shelf" cash at it, in fact I think the majority of players don't possess the wherewithal and/or musical needs to buy a $2K+ hand wired boutique amp.
It's usual for people to rationalize their choices in gear by touting its virtues, but trying to qualify taking the low dollar route by favorably "heads up" comparing a cheap toy to a real amp (other than the cheap initial cost) is a little comedic to those who do know the difference.
Unless of course, you happen to own both a Peavey and a Hiwatt, then, although I still believe the majority of those with experience with both would disagree, it becomes your valid opinion and not just “sour grapes”.

Maybe I'm missing something though; perhaps your posts meant as a joke, or maybe a troll?

 

[scowboy]

Hey...

This thread is giving me VB-2 GAS!

 

[sk8]

get to try the 200 again at practice tomorrow. Gota gig in a couple of weeks so will unleash it with the NV412 - should be good.

 

[taurus1]

I own and have owned a lot of amps. I have no problem using a pcb amp like say a JCM800 or JMP, something with flying leads to the pots and jacks. if the jacks and pots are board mounted then the amp qualifies as disposable garbage to me. I'm not refering to it's tone or performance but directly to it's construction. there is no excuse to board mount pots and jacks other than to cheap out.

 

[Bigjohn]

My friend,
I am not being comedic (but nothing against comedy!).
I am not joking.
I am not trolling.
I take my gear very seriously and so you know:
I play professionally several times a month and personally take home $250 to $450 (sometimes more) per show.
I also have a quite high paying professional career outside of music. I don't like saying this because it sounds like bragging but my point is this:
My situation is such that I can (and do) buy any and all gear I want. I own ampeg SVTs (the tube ones), both 70's and SLM. I own top of the line Mesa cabs. I just bought a powerhouse 4x12 new. I have a lot of gear, all of it top of the line. And I choose the Peavey VB2 because it is the finest sounding amp I've used.
So if it is a toy, it is a toy that sounds amazing and is used by a pro in a pro band through pro cabinets on pro stages miked through pro sound making pro money.
If I wanted a Hiwatt, I'd buy one. Hiwatt are fine. I've gigged them and I've recorded with them. But I don't want one because I've found what I consider to be an even better sounding amp of that type.
My first post said two things:
Hiwatt are expensive (not that it is a barrier to me) and try a VB2. That's it.
Im sharing this so bass players who like the big, high headroom but uniquely el34 Hiwatt sound can try an even better amp that amazingly sells for much less and happens to have a peavey (go figure) nameplate.
That's it my friend. Now go and do well with whatever amp you plug in to.

Maybe, but only until the word got out that they were just cheap PCB "toy amps" stuffed into a Diezel or Bogner or Mesa box.
I figure that would take about 10 minutes on sites like thegearpage.net.

If the Peavey works for your situation, more power to you. As I’ve posted, IMO Peavey makes great gear for the money, and fits the practicality/needs/budgets of far many more players than the high dollar handcrafted gear.

A Ford Mustang GT isn't in the same league as a Porsche 911 either, but IMO it's a great car, a good value for the money, and without question from a practical standpoint far better suits the budget restrictions of a much larger percentage of the car buying public.

Not everyone takes their equipment seriously enough to throw "top shelf" cash at it, in fact I think the majority of players don't possess the wherewithal and/or musical needs to buy a $2K+ hand wired boutique amp.
It's usual for people to rationalize their choices in gear by touting its virtues, but trying to qualify taking the low dollar route by favorably "heads up" comparing a cheap toy to a real amp (other than the cheap initial cost) is a little comedic to those who do know the difference.
Unless of course, you happen to own both a Peavey and a Hiwatt, then, although I still believe the majority of those with experience with both would disagree, it becomes your valid opinion and not just “sour grapes”.

Maybe I'm missing something though; perhaps your posts meant as a joke, or maybe a troll?

 

[sk8]

like th idea of an Orange OBC115

 

[AwkwardLoudness]

Im sharing this so bass players who like the big, high headroom but uniquely el34 Hiwatt sound can try an even better amp that amazingly sells for much less and happens to have a peavey (go figure) nameplate.

I like the Peavey VB2 as well. However, most Hiwatt bass amps, i.e. DR201 and DR405, have KT88 power tubes, not EL34. Some vintage DR201s have six EL34 tubes but these are rarer than the KT88 version. All of the newer MG Hiwatt DR201s I've seen had KT88 power tubes. Hiwatt DR103s have four EL34 tubes, but these are more commonly used for guitar than bass.

 

[Big_Stu]

I'll add Glenn Hughes of Deep Purple, Jim Lea of Slade, and Glenn Cornick of Jethro Tull and Wild Turkey to that list.

One of his cabs now;

Driven by ..................

 

[Bigjohn]

That may be true now with the new ones but the classic Hiwatt recordings of the late 60's and earlier 70's were basically all DR103 100W and those are el34. Back in the late 1960's early 1970's Hiwatt heads like DR103 were for guitar or bass with no distinction. They offered guitar and bass cabs but the heads were for both and they sounded great for both (and for keyboards - Keith Emerson).
Pink Floyd (Waters), Jethro Tull / Wild Turkey (Cornick), Genesis (Rutherford through Selling England), Moody Blues (Lodge), The Who (Entwistle Live At Leeds, Woodstock), King Crimson (Lake, Burrell, Wetton), ELP (Lake through Trilogy) ... those were all 100W amps.
The loud guys just used multiple heads. Entwistle and Wetton usually ran 2 or 3.
Maybe the 200W and 400W weren't yet offered in the late 60's and very early 70's when those bands hiwatted up or maybe they just prefered the 100W, I don't know. But the classic Hiwatt tones like Live At Leeds, Crimson/Wetton etc. were all 100W el34. And when those players stopped using Hiwatt 100W, they moved on to other brands, like Entwistle with Sunn Coliseum, etc.
The only exception to the 100W Hiwatt rule of those days that I know of was Glen Hughes when he first joined Deep Purple. I think he used 200W heads at Cal Jam in 74. I don't know if his were the 6-el34 or 4-kt88.
I do know that in those days the 200W and 400W models were rare and not many were built.

I like the Peavey VB2 as well. However, most Hiwatt bass amps, i.e. DR201 and DR405, have KT88 power tubes, not EL34. Some vintage DR201s have six EL34 tubes but these are rarer than the KT88 version. All of the newer MG Hiwatt DR201s I've seen had KT88 power tubes. Hiwatt DR103s have four EL34 tubes, but these are more commonly used for guitar than bass.

 

[Bassmec]

That may be true now with the new ones but the classic Hiwatt recordings of the late 60's and earlier 70's were basically all 100W and those are el34.
Pink Floyd (Waters), Jethro Tull / Wild Turkey (Cornick), Genesis (Rutherford through Selling England), Moody Blues (Lodge), The Who (Entwistle Live At Leeds, Woodstock), King Crimson (Lake, Burrell, Wetton), ELP (Lake through Trilogy) ... those were all 100W heads.
The loud guys just used multiple heads. Entwistle and Wetton usually ran 2 or 3.
Maybe the 200W and 400W weren't yet offered in the late 60's and very early 70's when those bands hiwatted up or maybe they just prefered the 100W, I don't know. But the classic Hiwatt tones like Live At Leeds, Crimson/Wetton etc. were all 100W el34. And when those players stopped using Hiwatt 100W, they moved on to other brands, like Entwistle with Sunn Coliseum, etc.
The only exception to the 100W Hiwatt rule of those days that I know of was Glen Hughes when he first joined Deep Purple. I think he used 200W heads at Cal Jam in 74. I don't know if his were the 6-el34 or 4-kt88.
I do know that in those days the 200W and 400W models were rare and not many were built.

Glens Hiwatts where 4 KT88 200 watt amps and quite a few 100 Watt heads where fitted and re-biased for KT 88's at the time if used for bass.
Very reliable that way, GEC's (Genalex) where common and didn't cost an arm or a leg back then.

 

[AwkwardLoudness]

The only exception to the 100W Hiwatt rule of those days that I know of was Glen Hughes when he first joined Deep Purple. I think he used 200W heads at Cal Jam in 74. I don't know if his were the 6-el34 or 4-kt88.
I do know that in those days the 200W and 400W models were rare and not many were built.

Glenn Hughes, who used 100w, 200w and 400w Hiwatts at various times w/ Deep Purple, is not the only exception. According to the Mark Huss Hiwatt History site, Glenn Cornick was the person who requested that David Reeves build a 200 watt amp (Invalid Link Removed). Colin Pattenden of Manfred Mann's Earth band used a KT88 200w. Slade used multiple KT88 DR201s for both bass and guitar (see Big_Stu's post). The Dutch band Focus used a 400w Hiwatt. I thought that the Moody blues used a DR201 or two for bass, but I'm not certain. There are others for sure.

The earliest DR201 amps were KT88 models built in 1969. The earliest DR405 I've seen was likely built in 1971 based upon the individual component dates.

Certainly, many bassists have used the 100w Hiwatt amps, but the KT88 200w and 400w models are better for bass IMO. You are correct about Entwistle, who had 100 watt EL34 amps custom built by Hiwatt, and the circuit was similar to Townshend's CP103s.

Your post implied that Hiwatts are all EL34 amps, and I'm just saying that this is not the case.

 

[Bigjohn]

I said Glen Hughes was the only exception I knew of.
I can't comment on Slade and Manfred Mann's use of Hiwatt but if Noddy Holder (Slade) is the poster boy for Hiwatt 200W then I'd keep that a secret if I were you. You take Slade, I'll take Entwistle Live At Leeds, Wetton/Lake/Crimson, Rutherford/Genesis and Waters/Floyd.
And BTW, when I saw Focus live (twice) back in their heyday Jan Ackerman used Fender and Acoustic and Bert Reuter used Acoustic. When did Focus use Hiwatt? I'm not getting my info from some website. I was into those bands and saw them live. I saw Focus from front row at Cal State Fullerton.
The Who and all those prog bands I mentioned used the 100W. Those were the BIG Hiwatt bands. The ones who used LOTS of them for long stretches. You can find live pics. And for me, those guys had the best Hiwatt tones - especially Entwistle and Wetton
Entwistle Live At Leeds, King Crimson live tracks from Starless And Bible Black and Red (Fracture, Providence, etc.) - 100W, el34. What's left to say?

Glenn Hughes, who used 100w, 200w and 400w Hiwatts at various times w/ Deep Purple, is not the only exception. According to the Mark Huss Hiwatt History site, Glenn Cornick was the person who requested that David Reeves build a 200 watt amp (Invalid Link Removed). Colin Pattenden of Manfred Mann's Earth band used a KT88 200w. Slade used multiple KT88 DR201s for both bass and guitar (see Big_Stu's post). The Dutch band Focus used a 400w Hiwatt. I thought that the Moody blues used a DR201 or two for bass, but I'm not certain. There are others for sure.

The earliest DR201 amps were KT88 models built in 1969. The earliest DR405 I've seen was likely built in 1971 based upon the individual component dates.

Certainly, many bassists have used the 100w Hiwatt amps, but the KT88 200w and 400w models are better for bass IMO. You are correct about Entwistle, who had 100 watt EL34 amps custom built by Hiwatt, and the circuit was similar to Townshend's CP103s.

Your post implied that Hiwatts are all EL34 amps, and I'm just saying that this is not the case.