Double Bass Holding French Bow Downwards While Pizzing

[PraetorOfRome]

My school orchestra's playing Britten's Simple Symphony, and I find it impossible to get a resonant pizz on a school bass. As usual, school instruments are of the cheapest quality, and the bass I use is equipped with cheap jazz strings. Every time I pizz on the E string, there's an audible slap. I can't adjust the bridge; my teacher's not very experienced in Bass and it scares her. Although awkward (because I'm using a french bow), I've found that when I hold the bow downwards, as if pizzing with a german bow, there's less of a slap.

Is pizzing with a downwards french bow acceptable? If yes, what is the proper technique, and if not, what can I do?

Thanks!

 

[neilG]

It's not what is usually done, but if it helps you get a better approach to the string and you can avoid dropping the bow or smacking the bass with it, do it.

 

[Remyd]

This is almost certainly a technique thing rather than a setup thing. If you're slapping the fb with the string, you need to adjust your attack and release angles. Look at some older vids of DB players - it's tons more across than up. With appropriate technique, you can get a full sound even if the strings are bailing wire strung at 5mm action. Pizz technique is strikingly different with DB than with any other violin-family instrument.

Here's a very beginner-y video from @geoffbassist that might help a little. Apologies if it's too basic, but I've been playing for approaching 30 years, and I find technique things to fix all the time.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

But orch pizz is an upward stroke, as opposed to the sideways stroke commonly used in jazz pizz.

 

[Harry Monkley]

Might be worth getting a friend/teacher to video you playing the relevant section of the music both with the bow palmed upwards and with the bow down - watching the footage back might lead to a lightbulb moment.

 

[Remyd]

But orch pizz is an upward stroke, as opposed to the sideways stroke commonly used in jazz pizz.

That's true for sure, although I don't ever recall it making much of a difference in a sectional context. If it makes an unwanted noise (unless you're slapping), a change seems in order. I had to do this on my bass in high school, since I didn't have anything to say about the setup.

Now, since I've spent the last week of practice trying to harness that exact noise for good instead of evil, I may just be broadcasting my own frustrations, but a little meat on the notes seems to me to be preferable to a clickity noise at an inappropriate time during a classical piece. IMHO only.

 

[neilG]

But orch pizz is an upward stroke, as opposed to the sideways stroke commonly used in jazz pizz.

I find no basis in truth for that statement. Some pluck up, some sideways, no matter which bow they play.

 

[Les Fret]

I find no basis in truth for that statement. Some pluck up, some sideways, no matter which bow they play.

Yes but I agree with the former statement that an orchestral pizz is totally different from a standard jazz pizz. In jazz you play against the lower string whereas with orchestral pizz you don't play against the lower string in general. This gives a more mellow and less buzzing/sustaining sound. The same technique as cello players use when playing pizz. What you can do to avoid slapping is that you play a little less upward. And don't hook your finger under the string. Also you can try to play with your middle finger instead of index.

 

[neilG]

Yes but I agree with the former statement that an orchestral pizz is totally different from a standard jazz pizz. In jazz you play against the lower string whereas with orchestral pizz you don't play against the lower string in general. This gives a more mellow and less buzzing/sustaining sound. The same technique as cello players use when playing pizz. What you can do to avoid slapping is that you play a little less upward. And don't hook your finger under the string. Also you can try to play with your middle finger instead of index.

I've been playing in orchestras for over 40 years, and I try to get the same mellow sound in symphonic works as I would in a rhythm section. Pulling up on the string like a cellist will not get that sound and will more likely result in buzzing and a non-sustaining sound. Do what you like, but it's not a "thing" to have a separate technique for orchestra vs. jazz.

 

[Les Fret]

I've been playing in orchestras for over 40 years, and I try to get the same mellow sound in symphonic works as I would in a rhythm section. Pulling up on the string like a cellist will not get that sound and will more likely result in buzzing and a non-sustaining sound. Do what you like, but it's not a "thing" to have a separate technique for orchestra vs. jazz.

In this video it is well explained. The upward motion being the more traditional orchestra pizz. When you play a rest stroke it is a 'jazz style pizzicato'. You can do both but there is certainly a difference:

 

[neilG]

Thanks, I would not have known what pizzicato was unless I saw a video of someone with half the experience I have demonstrating it.

 

[Les Fret]

Was just trying to help the topic starter and saying there are two general types of pizz as demonstrated clearly in that video. Use whatever you want. No reason to be cynical.

 

[jsf729]

In this video it is well explained. The upward motion being the more traditional orchestra pizz. When you play a rest stroke it is a 'jazz style pizzicato'. You can do both but there is certainly a difference:

(1:18) I got blistas on me fingas! (John Lennon anyone)?

 

[robobass]

I haven't been playing as long as Neil, but I still claim 30+ years in both orchestra and jazz contexts. I find there to be a significant difference between orchestra and jazz pizzicato styles, and up until now I was unaware of opinions to the contrary.

 

[Les Fret]

I haven't been playing as long as Neil, but I still claim 30+ years in both orchestra and jazz contexts. I find there to be a significant difference between orchestra and jazz pizzicato styles, and up until now I was unaware of opinions to the contrary.

Same here (not 30 years but long enough to know what's going on). Lately I am also experimenting with playing pizz with my thumb while holding the bow.

 

[Steve Freides]

One person's data points - when I play jazz pizz, it's louder than when I play orchestral pizza. I believe "When in Rome, ..." and use the style that I was taught is appropriate for each.

Bottom line - lots of folks handle this lots of ways and no one seems to care, so long as the sound produced is the sound desired. I think people are a lot looser about this kind of technique thing with bass players then with the other strings in the orchestra.

NB: My auto-correct turned "pizz" into "pizza." You can't pizz a pizza.

JMO, YMMV.

-S-

 

[PaulCannon]

I've been playing in orchestras for over 40 years... Do what you like, but it's not a "thing" to have a separate technique for orchestra vs. jazz.

All due respect to your years of experience, but that sentiment simply does not reflect my own experiences in any of the top-level orchestras I've played with.

It's possible there's just a mis-understanding here. When orchestra players describe a "jazz" pizzicato, they're describing a heavy full-finger side stroke at the edge of the fingerboard a la Ray Brown. A typical orchestral pizz is just a fingertip closer to the middle of the fingerboard. Done too strongly, it would indeed become a Bartok pizzicato snap.

 

[robobass]

When I'm layin' down time I use a side of the finger, Ron Carter style pizz, which I would never use in orchestra. When doing a delicate ballad with very few notes, I will pull upwards, way up on the fingerboard, with my Donald Trump finger. I was once made fun of by a singer because of how high I lifted my arm when doing this. I told her she needed to meet a man who knew how to follow through.

 

[PraetorOfRome]

I can do a perfect orch pizz on my personal bass - The question isn't how to pizz, I'm just wondering what I can do to prevent a slapping noise on a school bass strung with cheap jazz-strings. I have no other option at school other than to use a crappy bass.

 

[neilG]

I get it, opinions may vary. Here's how I know I'm playing jazz pizz: I'm playing jazz. When in the symphony, I use whatever technique gets me the sound I want, side finger Carter style or pinkies-up middle of the fingerboard style with my fingertip. My peeve is with the categorizing of the techniques.