I also like the EAP into RedEye combo for most gigs. I occasionally play with an electric blues band that specifically wants DB. Then I use a Vic's model B that really works well. The sound is more electric but still enough DB-like in that situation and plenty loud- works for me. It's also easy to remove when I don't need it. As an aside: Rick, the location you recommended for the EAP has worked much better on my bass than the one I was using before. Many Thanks!
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Double Bass Horrible gigs where you can't hear a thing.
- Thread starter Peter Wood
- Start date
One of my peers used the EAP. I had a chance to play his bass as well as mix him on a couple of tours. By far the best sounding contact pickup I have experienced.
His normal rig at the time was a 600W Acoustic Image head pushing a Euphonic Audio NL210. Always plenty of volume with this gear and it sounded fantastic. Reasonably close to MBOL.
We did a tour to Siberia and the provided backline for several of the concerts included a vintage Ampeg SVT and 810. With this rig, his bass and the EAP were really prone to feedback in the low mids. My guess is something like an Empress ParaEQ would have helped immensely, but we did not have anything similar. The only thing he could do to mitigate the problem was turn the amp down to the point where it was barely audible.
I have read of famous players successfully using an SVT and 810 with upright. It did not work well for us and I was not the least bit surprised.
His normal rig at the time was a 600W Acoustic Image head pushing a Euphonic Audio NL210. Always plenty of volume with this gear and it sounded fantastic. Reasonably close to MBOL.
We did a tour to Siberia and the provided backline for several of the concerts included a vintage Ampeg SVT and 810. With this rig, his bass and the EAP were really prone to feedback in the low mids. My guess is something like an Empress ParaEQ would have helped immensely, but we did not have anything similar. The only thing he could do to mitigate the problem was turn the amp down to the point where it was barely audible.
I have read of famous players successfully using an SVT and 810 with upright. It did not work well for us and I was not the least bit surprised.
The Ehrlund is a fantastic PU. It literally sounds like my bass, only louder. I tend to think, if it's too loud to stop feedback, it's just too loud. That said, we played in a club that was a concrete cube. That was pretty awful, lows and low mids bouncing around willy nilly.
BTW, I've played loud through 2 x 4x10" in a picnic shelter with no issues. I've also played outside with my SVT copy and 4x10" cranked and had no issues.
You can see the vol at 12 o'clock. That's the loudest I've ever had this amp and it's HUGE. Like the best sounding, most headroom amp I've ever used. No feedback.
The pub on Saturday had a sailcloth enclosure that seemed to hold all the sound in, and the PA was too large for the venue. The soundtech was genuinely trying to help, but A. I think he dialed all the mids out of my sound and B. he set everything too loud. Here's another song. He's trying to sort out things during the song.
BTW, I've played loud through 2 x 4x10" in a picnic shelter with no issues. I've also played outside with my SVT copy and 4x10" cranked and had no issues.
You can see the vol at 12 o'clock. That's the loudest I've ever had this amp and it's HUGE. Like the best sounding, most headroom amp I've ever used. No feedback.
The pub on Saturday had a sailcloth enclosure that seemed to hold all the sound in, and the PA was too large for the venue. The soundtech was genuinely trying to help, but A. I think he dialed all the mids out of my sound and B. he set everything too loud. Here's another song. He's trying to sort out things during the song.
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Interesting comments about how engineers mix drums. As a regular punter just attending a gig I find the drums are too often mixed like each drum is a separate instrument, rather than the whole kit sounding like a whole. For jazz (and a lot of other genres) this doesn't work, especially when this approach extends to how the whole band sounds. As already pointed out above, it's likely because of a lack of familiarity with the genre. Hard to known what to do...
How about the opposite situation: you're playing quiet jazz in a restaurant and the manager keeps asking you to turn down until you're all literally "air-playing" your instruments, and the manager gives you a thumbs up! That actually happened to me!
Delusions of grandeur. Ever since the Dead introduced the Wall of Sound, sound guys have had rock-and-roll-stadium-shows on the brain. Those who can do things according to the actual context in front of them are few.
I mean, I remember being 21 years old in a rock band where they did this kind of thing, miking every drum, sound checks that took three hours, 16 channel boarrds. And we were playing stinky little bars for $50 a man (yeah, I know, $50 a man is STILL standard rate, but that's a different discussion...) We coulda come in there with a wee combo amp for each guitarist and the bass, and a wee PA for vocals, and still been too damn loud. But we wanted to "look PRO" so we hauled all that crap in and we didn't sound a bit better for it.
When I was in college, our big band did the "mike everything up like you're Buddy Rick" thing - and then I got my first professional gigs with a good society band. The bandleader, who was an old guy that'd been round the block a bunch of times, set up the sound and ran the PA. One solo mike for each section, one mike for vocals and announcements. Keys, bass, guitar brought their own and they were responsible for balancing themselves. Setup took about 15-20 minutes. It took more time to get the chairs on the bandstand, setup the fronts, and run the power for the stand lights. And it sounded great. If the guitar or bass player was too loud, the leader leaned over and said "You're too loud. Turn down." and they did.
I've used in-ear monitors to good effect. I take a signal direct from my amp to a small headphone amp that drives my in-ears.
So I only have the bass coming through the in-ears, set at a very low volume, often it's only the high end that I hear with amp being a subwoofer. I've not had problems with hearing the rest of the band. Given that you already use ear plugs this is quite similar....
So I only have the bass coming through the in-ears, set at a very low volume, often it's only the high end that I hear with amp being a subwoofer. I've not had problems with hearing the rest of the band. Given that you already use ear plugs this is quite similar....
Sorry to hear that -no pun intended-, I'd ask for an obsene amount of money the next time, to compensate for hearing damage.
If this is a situation you were not aware of, I'd make sure you have eye contact with the drummer and the playlist is clearly visible and I'd crank the amp to 11.
Wether they like it or not, the rest of the band must follow you.
If this is a situation you were not aware of, I'd make sure you have eye contact with the drummer and the playlist is clearly visible and I'd crank the amp to 11.
Wether they like it or not, the rest of the band must follow you.
Respectfully. My band mates are lovely people. The drummer is the nicest guy you'll ever meet. He ordinarily plays quieter just for me. Same for the guitar player. They don't have to follow me. I am not the band leader. I am, however, listened to and respected a lot. They were just as unhappy with the gig. And the amp was already cranked to 11... and it wasn't even my amp. So, while I appreciate the sentiment, I won't be doing that. As mentioned above. In future, we'll likely avoid this venue. It's too much trouble.
It is hard to convey a complete message with a couple of sentences in a forum. However, I understand and see that I was not 100% clear.
In situations like the one you described, I'd rather drive the song than get lost in a sea of noise.
Here is something that stuck in my head 30 years ago, when I was learning from Rufus Reid "The evolving bassist", perhaps will help clarify:
"My concept is that we as bassists should be able to play completely alone and relay the essence of a song by the construction of our bass line. We don't need the keyboard to clarify the kind of chord. We don't need the drummer to clarify your rhythm. You should be able to swing and radiate energy all alone. Obviously, when we add a good piano player and drummer, it should be an added pleasure, but not a crutch. Don't lean on anyone, it is your responsibility to play harmonically and rhythmically simultaneously"
Peace out.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
Sorry, but this is on you.
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
One of my bass heroes since the late sixties.
He is the one who told me, when I was young and aspiring to learn as much as I could, "If you're serious, learn every song you'll play in all twelve keys, and OWN THE TIME."
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Quick update... the whole band have agreed that the gig was a disaster and the venue's last chance. We'll be avoiding the venue in future. I guess it's just one of those situations where you do everything to try and recover a bad situation and fail. That's the hit and miss nature of gigs and we're open minded coz getting gigs is a struggle for the band ATM. Lots of duo work, but not much band work.
In other news, I tried out and am buying a PJB Earbox. I used it at rehearsal the other day and was blown away by helpful it was (after I turned my treble up from 0 to 5. Lol. I know, right?). So that's a good solution for hearing better at future gigs.
In other news, I tried out and am buying a PJB Earbox. I used it at rehearsal the other day and was blown away by helpful it was (after I turned my treble up from 0 to 5. Lol. I know, right?). So that's a good solution for hearing better at future gigs.
I've used wireless in-ear monitors (xVive) with the sound piped from the aux output from my bass amp.
As a bassist you will never win a war of volume. As a bassist you will occasionally not be able to hear yourself. These are two truths. In a loud situation I would suggest some kind of ear protection. Interestingly enough typical earplugs are going to filter more mids and highs than bass frequencies and you might actually hear the bass better while reducing the overall volume. It's a shame that people crank their amps up so high that you can't hear yourself. That's not a good session. I assume you stand right up next to the bass speakers and can at least feel the bass. You can try throwing some bass in the monitors if that's available. Other than that, try to find a register that you can hear and stick with it. Sometimes low is not the answer. Play in the middle of the neck and see what you find there. Open strings tend to be less clear and less controllable. Play in closed positions.
Some of the old pre amp jazzers described being able to "feel" what you were playing even if you couldn't hear yourself clearly. That actually seems to help. I think it's as much a mental as physical thing. If I put myself in this mindset it makes me more aware of where I am on the neck and mentally hearing what I'm playing, if that makes any sense. A similar thing helps in orchestra section playing, where it can be difficult to hear your own efforts. Whatever works.
There's "can't hear myself" and there's "too damn loud, hearing damage incoming". I don't tolerate the latter. If I get stuck with Bashy McBash the drummer, or Twiddles McNoodle the delusions-of-grandeur lead guitar player, or Wall O'Sound the rock and roll sound man who isn't able to understand that you do different things for a stadium audience of 10,000 versus 100 people 80+ years old at the local Senior Center (and the second one is this gig) - I no longer tolerate it, I no longer grit my teeth and continue. First, out come the brightly colored ear plugs. If that's not enough, out come the brightly colored shooting muffs. I don't care if it looks weird. One gig versus the rest of my life with more of the little hair cells broken off? Easy choice.
