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How do I convince him this is just stupid?

Ekulati

Ekulati

Jan 2, 2016
1,782
2,655
Richmond, VA
#1
Some of you may have seen/replied to my post about having trouble using my small kickback amp as a floor wedge, on insistence of my PA Owner (not BL really, as we are more like co-BLs). Anyway, got that problem solved, as it was simply a bad cord I had the first time.

But did the same gig, Friday, and now, even with my Ibanez amp dimed, I still couldn’t hear my own vocal the way you hear it with a true vocal monitor. So...didn’t completely blow the voice out this time, but it was still very sub par overall.

But to top it off, out of (he would say) “efficiency,” but I would say laziness or control freakishness, he insists on running EVERYTHING through our various powered monitors. So, on a tiny stage where I hear everything anyway, I ALSO hear, guitars, keys, and parts of the drum kit, along with everyone else’s vocal, along with MY vocal.

Not surprising, he does this in order to not have to hire and pay a soundman. “I hear exactly what’s going out through the mains...” Yeah right. Stupid. How do I convince him? (This should be fun...but please, no suggestions of violence, he is still a friend!)
 
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#3
Wow! Professional Sound engineer here.
The monitor mix in no way reflects how things sound in the FOH !

Like I didn't even know where to start.
If he won't listen to you , find someone whose opinion he trusted , bonus if he's an audio engineer. & have them explain it to him.
It sounds like he doesn't want to listen to your thoughts even though I think you're right, this is not the right way or the best use of your PA system for best results.

Hell show him this this reply & I'll be happy to explain it quickly here:

The mains and/ or subs are going to have a very different frequency response based on the design of Speakers and direction they're facing.
The room acoustics will also interact with them very differently than what you hear from monitors on stage


You will not get an accurate picture of what the audience is hearing by sending the same mix through your monitors. Even if they are the same brand and speaker size as you use for you mains.


There that's the short short version

& you can see my website here for credibility

hbabelsproductions.com
 
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#4
Sometimes you have to be blunt...
Let him get the FOH feed in his monitors.. but tell him that is not working for you and you need to hear x.
Tell him what that is.. it's not that hard to do. .it's a secondary AUX feed out to you.. you can put bass and your vox in there, and hear the rest thru the stage "noise".
 
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#5
hbabels said:
The monitor mix in no way reflects how things sound in the FOH !
Click to expand...

I should have been clearer: it's not a monitor mix, he just daisy chains OFF the output on the mains, to monitors. So it is getting the same signal, although as you note, not gonna be the same as the sound going out to FOH.

Yeah, as noted, it's a control thing. He fronts three or four bands total and uses the PA the same way, insisting that "It's always fine." Our band has the most complex vocals, however, and NEEDS to have pro monitor setups.

Getting someone else to chime in who's a sound pro whom he respects is a good idea...
 
#7
Oh wow, I missed that detail that's not even a separate mix !! Yeah that's still not gonna give you an accurate picture of FOH sound.

I like the suggestion get your own powered monitor! You could get an XLR splitter - transformer balanced NOT just a Y cable please & then send a signal to main mixer & 1 to your monitor.

You wouldn't have everyone else but easily could control your vocal level at least.

Would be better & very easily if you could just get a separate send from mixer.

I can't believe he has an issue with this.
I'd explain you want to sound as best you can & this will help that & then make the whole band sound better which is what we want , right ?! :-)
 
#8
More info is needed. What is the mixer and how many monitor speakers does the band use? Is one available just for you or do you have to share? If you just need your vocals louder than you might actually have to open the wallet and buy a monitor. You could go cheap and buy one that fits on a mic stand like this Invalid Link Removed You can plug your microphone into this and then use the thru output to send a signal to the main PA. You will then be able to control your own volume of voice through the Kustom
 
#9
I think the biggest reason to NOT use the kickback amp as a monitor is the voicing of that amp for bass amplification rather than full spectrum, flat(ish) response amplification like you'd have with an actual powered two way speaker. With your instrument amp, by design you're going to get more low and low-mids than upper mids and highs no matter how hot you crank your amp. Anything you get out of that amp is likely getting lost in the mix and stage volume.

Now, running the FOH signal into the monitors is a whole other issue. I'm taking a wild guess that he doesn't have the last clue on how to set up monitors using AUX mix and controlling things that way.

With this guy's setup, one key issue is when you bring down the mains faders, you're also bringing down the signal to the monitors and that defeats at least a couple of purposes of having monitors in the first place. Second key issue is that having a dedicated monitor mix is so you DON'T have to have the keys/kick/snare/whatever up front in your mix.

And I vehemently disagree that what he is hearing though the monitors is the same as what is coming thru FOH. For ***** and giggles, record both sides of the house next gig and compare results.
 
#10
Ekulati said:
Not surprising, he does this in order to not have to hire and pay a soundman.
Click to expand...

You should be able to sit down with your co-leader and work it a solution that will work for both of you. The art of making any deal, or negotiation, is to understand what the other person true needs are. Then start working on solutions.

You've got a headstart there. He wants to avoid not splitting the payment with more people, and keep more for you, him, and the others in the band. Sounds good to me.

I usually have to chase down want others want, and get them to speak up.
 
#11
Ekulati said:
Some of you may have seen/replied to my post about having trouble using my small kickback amp as a floor wedge, on insistence of my PA Owner (not BL really, as we are more like co-BLs). Anyway, got that problem solved, as it was simply a bad cord I had the first time.
'S
But did the same gig, Friday, and now, even with my Ibanez amp dimed, I still couldn’t hear my own vocal the way you hear it with a true vocal monitor. So...didn’t completely blow the voice out this time, but it was still very sub par overall.

But to top it off, out of (he would say) “efficiency,” but I would say laziness or control freakishness, he insists on running EVERYTHING through our various powered monitors. So, on a tiny stage where I hear everything anyway, I ALSO hear, guitars, keys, and parts of the drum kit, along with everyone else’s vocal, along with MY vocal.

Not surprising, he does this in order to not have to hire and pay a soundman. “I hear exactly what’s going out through the mains...” Yeah right. Stupid. How do I convince him? (This should be fun...but please, no suggestions of violence, he is still a friend!)
Click to expand...

That's too bad because you guys could have a decent stage sound if you did things right. It's counterproductive to have instruments going through the monitor that you can already hear. I'd explain to him that he needs to use his ears and not his head and that every place you set up is going be different.
 
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#13
Your sound guy is doing it wrong.

You need your own monitor mix.

For me, that's kick drum, hit hat, and my vocals. YMMV. I use my amp as my stage monitor, kicked back, just like you do. I keep the volume down, and point the amp right at my head.

Your sound guy is not mixing the monitors. He is clueless. Be nice. Try to explain to him what a monitor mix is.
 
#14
The keys/vocals/guitar guy (for any given song, pick one instrument max...) in my classic rock project thinks he wants a FOH mix in his monitor. I told him 'no problem' but I think he'll wind up not liking it, even if he does need to hear the other vocals for harmonies. So this idea is not unique to your guy.
He seemed quite surprised when I told him I don't want to hear _any_ vocals in my monitor mix - just my (fretless) bass, hi-hat, and instruments, which I already get from spill/bleed. Hearing vocals just screws with my intonation...
Pretty much everything goes into the board, even if we are using the individual amps to carry the house (we play a bunch of small clubs) exactly so I can put whatever is needed into the monitor mixes. Of course once it's there, it's nice to be able to send it to FOH if needed...
Typically, my bass is in the PA, although I'll usually have my cab available as a monitor since the drummer wants to hear it and my (relatively inexpensive vocal-oriented) monitors aren't good for that.
Everybody can have an individual mix (5 AUX channels) although there's usually only enough room on stage for 2 monitors. I use InEars - I get what _I_ want...
 
#18
Ugh! If it helps, you can relay my post to the BL:

We're a rock band that's _loud_ onstage. The guitarist gets his sound, the drummer hits hard, and I hold my own, daggonit. The only thing in our stage monitors is the vocal mix.

Period.

Try that. It works very well for us.
 
#19
Nev375 said:
Convincing someone of their own stupidity when they are not inclined to see themselves in that light does not usually end well.
Click to expand...

I agree with this 100%. For all practical purposes, invincible ignorance can only be forgiven.

Here's a musical example, but it's completely analogous to stupid ideas about live sound.

I'm in a band with a female vocalist who sounds better as a singer than a shouter. We claim to be a 50s rock n roll / 60s soul band. Two famous versions of "Where Did Our Love Go" are on these baby boomers' radar. They insist on doing the J Geils Band version. :wideyed: :bored: :banghead:





Sidebar: I hope you enjoy the unusual combination of upright bass + tic-tac bass on the Supremes' live version. Sort of a novelty for a Motown act. The version my band rejected was the iconic Motown single, which only makes matters worse.
 
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#20
There is nothing stupid about micing the instruments to keep stage volume down. What is stupid is not using the auxes for monitors. If the band leader wants to have the FOH mix in his monitor that is up to him but to make everyone else do the same is idiotic.
 

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