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How do I incorporate chromatics and non diatonic notes?

#23
wrench45us said:
so the concept of adding chromatic notes in funk and RnB is different from general walking bass and jump blues bass
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The simple process of learning to hear chromaticism is essentially the same for any music: Practice chromatic scales and patterns to learn to hear that sound > Practice playing music (any genre) chromatically to learn to apply it. Nothing about playing music is very complicated. It's about the time you spend working at it and the quality of the work you do.
 
#24
wrench45us said:
so the concept of adding chromatic notes in funk and RnB is different from general walking bass and jump blues bass
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Yes. Jazz is (speaking VERY BROADLY) based on a triplet feel with the bass playing quarter notes over it. Funk/RnB like Jamerson is based on a 16th note subdivision. That's going to change how you phrase the use of approach notes. I'm just trying to address the concerns of the OP, and he did not mention jazz in his post.
 
#25
Snarf said:
Yes. Jazz is (speaking VERY BROADLY) based on a triplet feel with the bass playing quarter notes over it. Funk/RnB like Jamerson is based on a 16th note subdivision. That's going to change how you phrase the use of approach notes.
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But it doesn't change the fundamental sound of those notes. Once you get a sound in your mind's ear applying it to any particular genre is only a matter of how well you understand that particular genre.
 
#26
jeff arddun said:
But it doesn't change the fundamental sound of those notes. Once you get a sound in your mind's ear applying it to any particular genre is only a matter of how well you understand that particular genre.
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I'm not sure if I agree with that.

I think to some extent chromaticism and certain non-diatonic notes can just sound bad depending on the genre regardless of the player's feel or his/her understanding of the genre.

For example, there are certain licks/ideas that might sound great in a funk setting that I think would just sound bad in country, period, if you're trying to retain a true country feel.
 
#27
Cloverfield said:
I'm not sure if I agree with that.

I think to some extent chromaticism and certain non-diatonic notes can just sound bad depending on the genre regardless of the player's feel or his/her understanding of the genre.

For example, there are certain licks/ideas that might sound great in a funk setting that I think would just sound bad in country, period, if you're trying to retain a true country feel.
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You ever see that Victor Wooten Groove Workshop vid where he solos over a diatonic groove using only "wrong" notes? A note only ever sounds wrong because there is mutual agreement between the player and audience that it sounds wrong. A player with strong, focused intent can sell damn near anything. If you don't believe it watch that video. It's not a new concept or one I came up with. Kenny Werner uses the phrase "the new right note".

All that boring and irrelevant philosophy aside though don't you think applying chromaticism appropriately to a particular genre like country might not obviously involve using it differently than you would in funk? Just as you might use diatonicism or pentatonicism differently? The sound of a chromatic scale played (practiced?) evenly without inflection is beyond genre. How well you can incorporate that sound into a particular genre (its rhythmic, harmonic and melodic conventions or cliches) depends on the depth of your understanding of how those conventions and cliches actually define the genre. Does that make any more sense?
 
#28
jeff arddun said:
You ever see that Victor Wooten Groove Workshop vid where he solos over a diatonic groove using only "wrong" notes? A note only ever sounds wrong because there is mutual agreement between the player and audience that it sounds wrong. A player with strong, focused intent can sell damn near anything. If you don't believe it watch that video. It's not a new concept or one I came up with. Kenny Werner uses the phrase "the new right note".

All that boring and irrelevant philosophy aside though don't you think applying chromaticism appropriately to a particular genre like country might not obviously involve using it differently than you would in funk? Just as you might use diatonicism or pentatonicism differently? The sound of a chromatic scale played (practiced?) evenly without inflection is beyond genre. How well you can incorporate that sound into a particular genre (its rhythmic, harmonic and melodic conventions or cliches) depends on the depth of your understanding of how those conventions and cliches actually define the genre. Does that make any more sense?
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Yeah, I can dig that. I think to some extent I might have misunderstood you.

And yeah, I've seen and own Wooten's Groove Workshop DVD. Freakin' blew me away the first time I watched / worked through it. :bassist:
 
#29
jeff arddun said:
You ever see that Victor Wooten Groove Workshop vid where he solos over a diatonic groove using only "wrong" notes? A note only ever sounds wrong because there is mutual agreement between the player and audience that it sounds wrong. A player with strong, focused intent can sell damn near anything. If you don't believe it watch that video. It's not a new concept or one I came up with. Kenny Werner uses the phrase "the new right note".
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Yeah, he's soloing. He's not trying to comp and fit in with a rhythm section, singer, and horn section. He said himself in a clinic I attended about five years ago that if you try anything like that at a gig, you ain't coming back to play that gig again. You have to play not only what's appropriate for the style, but also what's appropriate given the instrumentation in the band. That's why I think that while your suggestion about walking bass is good if the OP were looking for pointers on approach notes in jazz, it's not helpful for someone looking for funk examples. The way that approach notes are used in the two styles are very different, and the OP would be better served to skip the walking bass and study Jamerson, Kaye, etc.

IMO.
 
#30
Thanks alot guys for the input. I only wasn't refering to R&B and funk. I also ordered the Ed Friedland walking bass book. Hopefully, some of these books like Wrench45us said will really help me gain insight to how to expand basic chordal theory
 
#31
Snarf said:
Yeah, he's soloing. He's not trying to comp and fit in with a rhythm section, singer, and horn section. He said himself in a clinic I attended about five years ago that if you try anything like that at a gig, you ain't coming back to play that gig again.
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He says that on the DVD too and I certainly never said otherwise. I agree. Everything I'm saying here is about PRACTICING.

You have to play not only what's appropriate for the style, but also what's appropriate given the instrumentation in the band. That's why I think that while your suggestion about walking bass is good if the OP were looking for pointers on approach notes in jazz, it's not helpful for someone looking for funk examples. The way that approach notes are used in the two styles are very different, and the OP would be better served to skip the walking bass and study Jamerson, Kaye, etc.
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You have me confused with someone else or are misunderstanding me. I NEVER advocated walking basslines or any other style or genre. What I'm saying is to practice chromatic scales and patterns (or any other chordal or scalar sequences) evenly without style or genre to get the fundamental sound in your mind's ear then apply it to whatever genre you want to.

It is worth noting though that Motown has lots of walking bass and that Jamerson especially comes from a straight ahead jazz bass tradition. I'm mentioning this because I believe if you really want to get inside a genre you should know everything you can find out about its history and evolution. Some understanding of walking jazz bass is absolutely essential to a deeper understanding of motown bass.
 
#33
An example of a sweet use of chromatics is in Wilton Felder's bass line in the Jackson 5's I want you Back.
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In bar 2 the line goes from a Db maj to chord to a Fmin chord.
the line uses these notes of the Db Maj chord: b7-7-1-b2-2-b3-3. It's every note between B and F.
Normally many of these intervals would sound 'bad' over a major chord, but it's the rhythmic choices that make it work:
the only notes given more time than a 16th are Db and F, the root notes.
 
#35
jamerson definitely. But also try transcribing some charlie parker and dexter gordon. you'll find that it's all very blues based, chromatics used for instances of tension and release. miles davis also. after you transcribe this stuff, learn it, get it under your fingers, then forget it all and play. try not to fall into the trap of repeating others lines, phrases etc...it's the hardest thing to do. but you can do it. remember, jamerson was an upright playing jazz musician long before motown happened. i'm sure he studied the greats, meaning, not just bass players. good luck.
 
#36
As stated in th OP, studying Jamerson is a great way to get some understanding of how to incorporate this sort of stuff into your playing.

Here's a link to a particularly good example, especially in the choruses:

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I've attached a transcription done by yours truly as well.
 

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