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Double Bass How do I tell the Principal that he's wrong?

#24
Don't ever go behind your principal's back and talk to the conductor directly. This is highly unprofessional and if you are a sub and doing this,you will probably not continue to sub in that orchestra and thus may lose a chance at making future $$$. If you are a tenured section member and doing this you are creating an all too excellent opportunity to ruin your professional and possibly personal relationship with an important colleague.

You say you like this principal, if you know this person well and this person can take a little criticism, maybe have a beer (or other appropriate beverage) with them after rehearsal and give them your opinion, but I would caution you to couch it as your own opinion and realize that if the principal truly disagrees, then you have to go with what your principal says and as others here have said "Let the principal take the heat".

Good luck!
 
#25
Just play loud enough and swing hard enough that you cant help but be noticed. If the conductor minds he will let you know. Otherwise I would keep my head low and go with it. Well meaning feet end up in well meaning mouths all to easily.
 
#29
koricancowboy said:
You don't. If the conductor accepts what the principal is doing you have to as well.
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Thats pretty much my feeling on it as well. A group has a leader and whether it's in an orchestra or a jazz group you absolutely cannot have every person trying to give their two cents about a particular piece or section of playing. What if an eight bar section said 'pp' and the conductor looked at you and said "I want those bars FORTISSIMO!". You wouldn't argue, you would play like he told you to because, at the end of the day, he's responsible for what the orchestra sounds like.
If you tell him that a section is being played wrong by the principal you are not only calling out your section leader but you are insulting his knowledge of and ear for the piece that you're playing (not something you want to do whether or not you are correct). You have to assume that he is hearing the orchestra and that he likes whats coming out. Orchestras have section principals for a reason, it would be cacophony without them.
 
#32
Fletcher Lanning said:
Thats pretty much my feeling on it as well. A group has a leader and whether it's in an orchestra or a jazz group you absolutely cannot have every person trying to give their two cents about a particular piece or section of playing. What if an eight bar section said 'pp' and the conductor looked at you and said "I want those bars FORTISSIMO!". You wouldn't argue, you would play like he told you to because, at the end of the day, he's responsible for what the orchestra sounds like.
If you tell him that a section is being played wrong by the principal you are not only calling out your section leader but you are insulting his knowledge of and ear for the piece that you're playing (not something you want to do whether or not you are correct). You have to assume that he is hearing the orchestra and that he likes whats coming out. Orchestras have section principals for a reason, it would be cacophony without them.
Click to expand...

+1
 
#33
Here's the solution, from Gerard Hoffnung:

hoffnung.jpg
 
#35
I would ask the principal to explain why you are supposed to play in a certain way. Ask in a open and polite way, when you are alone with him and when there is some time for him to elaborate. Hopefully he has a good reason for his instructions and you will learn something from it.

Regards, Anders
 
#36
I play as principle bass. When I imagine the same situation in my section, here is what I suggest you do.

Go to the principle privately at the break put the question out there that maybe it should be played differently, giving some reasons why you think the way you do. Mind you though, just questioning it at all is enough to get him thinking about it. Anyhow, don't be smart about it.. just discuss it with him, as though you're simply curious about the passage and are looking for clarification..

A good and confident principle will welcome your input. He will consider what you say - you are after all a group, a team, and you're presumably a good bass player in his opinion so he should value what you have to say. And you know, even if he doesn't, he should act like he does!! If he reacts defensively and is 'moody', well.. that's really his problem.
 
#37
Witjas said:
I play as principle bass. When I imagine the same situation in my section, here is what I suggest you do.


A good and confident principle will welcome your input. He will consider what you say - you are after all a group, a team, and you're presumably a good bass player in his opinion so he should value what you have to say.
Click to expand...

It's about time someone mentioned this. Thanks Witjas.

It is indeed sad that this thread has gone on as long as it has without someone pointing out that a principal should be good and confident enough that he/she can be approachable by a respected colleague. This is a failure on the the principal's part.

And also, the section player should play so well that the principal cannot help but be receptive to a section player's opinion. If a section player is just a "talker," than that section player should just STFU.

In conclusion, to the OP, the conditions for workplace communication about musical ideas include: 1 ) the principal should be approachable and usually that stems from principals who are good and confident, and thus respected by the orchestra, the section, and the conductor. It should be no problem to approach the principal directly if this is the case. 2) The section player contributes with their playing on a day-to-day basis. This includes nailing the part, blending in, providing sufficient dynamic contrast, no spacing off with entrances, and most importantly, a subtle artistry that elevates the playing of everyone around him/her without opening one's mouth. If this is you, then the principal will have no problem hearing your opinion.

To the OP, if it is apparent that both of the above conditions cannot be satisfied, then just keep your mouth shut, and let the conductor take care of it.
 
#38
approachable and confident whilst remaining cool? not very common

and even if he/she were all those things, it is very hard to do your job when 7 people are giving suggestions or openly disagreeing with you.

no matter what decision you make as principal, no matter how good you are, people will disagree with you at some level

highly professional ensembles have a principal mostly so that this debating is kept to a minimum and things run smoothly. The decisions a principal makes are very often not audible enough for even the conductor to notice. Someone has to make the decisions so that the section does things together, not so that the best possible bowing is put in, or anything like that.

when you play in a highly professional ensemble you will realize that for the most part people keep to themselves and do the best they can to just follow the instructions. There is no debating around the water cooler.
 
#39
but keep it in the frame work of what is best for the music, not as a matter of personal preferences. Step away from the egos and ask him, as a matter of understanding, why he believes the passage should be played that way. You may find that you have missed something, or vice versa, he may discover a different viable interpretation of the music. He may even welcome learning about a different approach, even though he may not want to use it. If there are recordings of the passage played with your interpretation, refer to them as support. ALWAYS frame it as what is best for the music. Do not take it personally, not let him take it personally
 

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