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How do keys in music work?

I

Ingratil

Jun 13, 2011
81
1
#1
Hello, so ive been playing bass for a bit over a year now. And i have a not so bad finger ability (not good) but I really want to learn theory to be able to understand how songs are made and to be able to create my own lines.
A concept that was ''explained'' to me a while back are ''keys'' my brother told me every song was on a key, and that there where 24 keys a minor and a major for each note (but my brother doesnt really know either). He gave me an example ''if a song is in the key of C major i could use any note that wasnt a flat or sharp since the C major scale is C D E.... with no flats or sharps.
And i think i understand all that very well, but my question is ''What are all the scales on C that have flats and sharps used for??!! For example the chromatic scale of c... it has sharps and flats... then i cant use it if i have a song on C? then whats the point of having scales??!!

Can i have a song in the key of ''C major blues'' or something like that? When can i use a blues scale if the notes it has arent on the key of C??

Thanks =) **Im not very good at english so this might be very confusing if u dont understand something please ask me t explain =)
 
#4
Sharps and flats maintain the intervals that Classic scales use to maintain their intergrity. For example for a classic scale to be considered Major the 7th note must be a semitone away from the 8th note.

So a C scale has C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C so the B (7th) is a semitone away from the C (8th). The intervals are T-T-ST-T-T-T-ST (T=Tone, ST=Semitone) so keeping it simple it is an Ionian mode construct. Cut that scale in half and you start on the G so G scale is G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G and you see G-F is a tone. You vannot lower the G or the G-A will be a semitone, so the only option is raise the 7th with a sharp, so gmajor now has one sharp.
Cut that scale in half and you have D-E-F#-G-A-B-C-D and you will see that the F#-G complies with the first ST requirement (in a C scale the first ST complies because E-F is a ST) but the 7th again does not (C-D). Again the olny option is to raise the 7th, so now D major has two sharps. Cut that in half to form a new scale A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G-A and well look at the 7th and i'm sure you can work out how this gets to 7 sharps, also look at how the added sharps are maintaining the intervals in each new scale. This is basically a cycle of 5ths being formed.
 
#5
DO YOURSELF A BIG FAVOR AND MAKE SURE YOU READ THROUGH ALL THIS IF YOU ARE SERIOUS ABOUT TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THEORY. IT IS NOT EASY AT FIRST SO DO NOT GET DISGRUNTLED! TAKE IS SLOW!

There are twelve tones, so technically each can have a major and minor scale pattern. However, there are more than just major and minor scales. As for chord, there are major, minor, diminished, augmented, and a few others but not necessary to know at the moment.

You are correct in understanding that if you are in the key of C Major, you can use all the notes that are not sharp or flat. (There are 7 different ones, and 5 sharps(#)/Flats(b) ).

When in the key of C major there are no sharps and flats. This is represented as 0 in the Circle of Fifths. It has 0 #'s/b's. As you progress through the Circle to the right, you add a # to each key. The order the keys go is C-G-D-A-E-B-F#-C#. The trick here is that for each sharp you add, you keep. So C=0, G=F, D=F/C, A=F/C/G and so on. The order is FCGDAEB. If you look closely, it relates to the circle of fifth order as well, just starting on the F rather than the C. (Do your own homework and check out the circle of fifths b's in major. Than check out the circle of fifths #'s/b's in minor)

The minor circle works the same way. The A minor scale has zero #'s/b's as well. So you can play all the notes without the sharps and flats and you can be playing the A minor scale. This known as the relative Major/Minor relationship.

Now you are thinking... HEY! How can I play the SAME NOTES and be playing TWO KEYS with DIFFERENT QUALITIES (Major and Minor).

Well, it depends on the key you start on, in this case, either C or A. Let me explain something else before we get into that.

C C# D # E F F# G G# A A# B C. From each letter to the next (C-C# or E-F) it is known as a half step or a semi tone. It is the smallest increment of movement in Western music. SO! C-D is two half/semi steps/tones (This is known as a whole step/tone).

C- D-E- F-G-A--B-C
W-W-H-W-W-W-H
(I tried to line up the spaces between the notes with W and H (WHOLE AND HALF) to represent the DISTANCE between the two notes.)
WWHWWWH is the MAJOR PATTERN. You start on ANY NOTE and play this pattern, you will be in a major key!

A- B-C- D-E-F--G-A
W-H-W-W-H-W-W
WHWWHWW is the MINOR PATTERN! You can start on ANY NOTE and play THIS pattern and you will be in a minor key!

These patterns determine the Major or minor scale.

(If you play C minor scale, opposed to C Major, you will have 3 flats. These are called parallel Major/Minors)

Okay, so now you know why a scale is a scale. In each scale, there ARE MAJOR AND MINOR CHORDS! There is also a DIMINISHED CHORD!

C-E-G is a MAJOR TRIAD. Read about intervals and triads. If you count C as 0 than count 4 semi tones: C#/D/D#/E, you have reached the MAJOR THIRD. Count 3 more (E being 0) (F/F#/G), you have reached the FIFTH (Which is called PERFECT). This is the formula for a MAJOR TRIAD (4 semi steps, than 3 semi steps). For minor do the inverse (3 semi steps, than 4 semi steps). C(0) Db/D/Eb, THAN from Eb(0) E/F/Gb/G. So your MINOR TRIAD in C is C-Eb-G. All you did was lower the third by a semi step.

I KNOW!!! I counted flats for the minor and sharps for the major. That is because C minor uses flats and not sharps. (ALMOST ALL cases, if you use a sharp you DO NOT use a flat. Vice verse, use a flat DO NOT use a sharp.) Just so you know, F# is the SAME note as Gb. They are ENHARMONICALLY EQUIVALENT.

SO!!!!!!

The notes in C MAJOR represent the CHORDS you will play.
CEG
DFA
EGB
FAC
GBD
ACE
BDF

If you look at the SCALE CDEFGABC, you form a TRIAD by taking your ROOT (First note of a CHORD) and skipping each letter to form the TRIAD (It will consist of a ROOT, THIRD and FIFTH). Look at the CHORDS I have listed above, and relate it to the SCALE.

The chord progress of a MAJOR SCALE can be represented by ROMAN NUMERALS. They have a certain pattern. A capital means MAJOR and lower case means MINOR. A DIMINISHED is represented by a small o (Think of the temperature degree symbol).

MAJOR: I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, viio, I.
I RECOMMEND you start at C, count the formula for a triad in MAJOR to actually count out the steps to making a MAJOR TRIAD. Do the MINOR pattern for D (ii). When you get to B (viio) you will count 3/3 (DIMINISHED chords are a MINOR CHORD with a LOWERED FIFTH).


Any questions, if I was unclear, or something is confusing, feel free to ask!
The first time you read through this, you may be confused... THAT IS NORMAL!!! It is not easy to start understanding all of this. The simplest things are deeply rooted in complex things!
 
#6
How do keys in music work?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some people play a keyboard instead of a guitar ... it is kind of an 80s thing

:hiding: ;)

Also remember too much theory will ruin your playing ...
 
#7
Papa Dangerous has given you a goldmine there. Print it, read it, digest it one little bit at a time. Do not move on to the next bit until you have grasped the first bit. That is pretty much all you will ever need unless you want to move into jazz, but you need to know this stuff first.
 
#11
I want to add one useful "trick" to the relative Major/Minor relationship that Papa Dangerous talked about. If you know how to play the major and minor scales, you can easily find one key's relative major/minor key.

If you have a major key, and you want to find it's relative minor, count to the 6th note of the major scale, and that's the relative minor key! Example: C Major is CDEFGAB, with A being the 6th note. Thus A Minor is relative to C Major.

If you have a minor key, and you want to find it's relative major, count to the 3rd note of the minor scale, and that's the relative major key! Example: A Minor is ABCDEFG, with C being the 3rd note. Thus C Major is relative to A Minor!
 
#12
Jinro said:
I want to add one useful "trick" to the relative Major/Minor relationship. If you know how to play the major and minor scales, you can easily find one keys relative major/minor.

If you have a major key, and you want to find it's relative minor, count to the 6th note of the major scale, and that's the relative minor key! Example: C Major is CDEFGABC, with A being the 6th note. Thus A Minor is relative to C Major.

If you have a minor key, and you want to find it's relative major, count to the 3rd note of the minor scale, and that's the relative major key! Example: A Minor is ABCDEFG, with C being the 3rd note. Thus C Major is relative to A Minor!
Click to expand...

+1

I have a trick to memorizing the notes of the Circle of Fifths that get sharped/flattened. But it is NOT G-Rated material! (It contains a potty word!) I do not know if would be acceptable to post that lol
 
#14
Although it is a good thing to know the notes and key of the chords, there is just a ton of information in that. I would never say to not know it but just knowing various patterns of the chords along with the proper scale degree quality, that should be more than enough.

Using the intervals to their potential will allow you to easily access the M3 if needed without knowing that is going to be F# (for example).

If you are playing major, than you should know that your 1 4 5 are going to be major chords. Your 2 3 6 are minor and your 7 is diminished. Just know how to approach the next chord (If you are going from Root to 5th than know the proper patterns to get there) and just play a major chord pattern.


Also, can you be a bit clearer? I understand how you say you have a hard time memorizing the notes and chords in each key but do you mean you have a hard trying to think... "Okay, I need to play a M5 here, but I do not remember what note is the 5th" or "I need to play a M5 but I do not remember which note is the 3rd in this key"

Or is it.. "I have to play a 5th... I do not know if it has to be Major or minor"

or *insert example*


P.S. I have to get off comp soon, I will try and get back to this tonight, if not tomorrow!
 
#15
Papa Dangerous said:
Although it is a good thing to know the notes and key of the chords, there is just a ton of information in that. I would never say to not know it but just knowing various patterns of the chords along with the proper scale degree quality, that should be more than enough.

Using the intervals to their potential will allow you to easily access the M3 if needed without knowing that is going to be F# (for example).

If you are playing major, than you should know that your 1 4 5 are going to be major chords. Your 2 3 6 are minor and your 7 is diminished. Just know how to approach the next chord (If you are going from Root to 5th than know the proper patterns to get there) and just play a major chord pattern.

Also, can you be a bit clearer? I understand how you say you have a hard time memorizing the notes and chords in each key but do you mean you have a hard trying to think... "Okay, I need to play a M5 here, but I do not remember what note is the 5th" or "I need to play a M5 but I do not remember which note is the 3rd in this key"

Or is it.. "I have to play a 5th... I do not know if it has to be Major or minor"

or *insert example*

P.S. I have to get off comp soon, I will try and get back to this tonight, if not tomorrow!
Click to expand...

The main problem is when I'm sight reading and remembering which notes are sharp or flat.
 
#16
Ohh okay! Well, first I would figure out the key.

I would look at how many #/b are in the key signature.

Than I would use my "trick" to remember the order of sharps.

The order which they are sharped is
FCGDAEB.. So I realized... FCG are the only letters of the musical alphabet that are in my favorite swear word. (can you guess??? :D)
The next 4 are DAEB. DAEB is BEAD backwards...

I think to myself F*****G DAEB!
- I am angry because I have to remember how to spell bead backwards!

So whenever you have a Sharp key signature... Count the sharps and see if applying this helps you remember the the order of the sharps.

NOW.. say you have 3 sharps... FCG... Go to the last Sharp (G) and count up a whole step (A). That is the key you are in.

6 sharps: FCGDAE = F#

For the flats. You start with BEAD... Than since you no longer angry about spelling bead backwards.. you don't need to say f*****g. It is GCF which I relate to Great Common Factor.

To recognize the key you are from the amount of flats is a bit more...

If you are in F (1 flat = B)... F is the 5th of B. (diminished fifth to be exact). That applies to the rest as well.

That is how you can remember major sharps and flats.

Minor is different. The order of sharps and flats are the same but for minor sharps, it is only a half step difference.

For flats. It is a minor third difference.

So E minor (1 Sharp = F) you are in E minor.

So D minor (1 flat = b) BD(F) - don't worry about the (F) I just put it there to show a chord. D is the minor third of B.

Think about and look at it... It's a bit to remember, but easier then remembering every single key.
 
#17
Papa Dangerous said:
DO YOURSELF A BIG FAVOR AND MAKE SURE YOU READ THROUGH ALL THIS IF YOU ARE SERIOUS ABOUT TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THEORY. IT IS NOT EASY AT FIRST SO DO NOT GET DISGRUNTLED! TAKE IS SLOW!

There are twelve tones, so technically each can have a major and minor scale pattern. However, there are more than just major and minor scales. As for chord, there are major, minor, diminished, augmented, and a few others but not necessary to know at the moment.

You are correct in understanding that if you are in the key of C Major, you can use all the notes that are not sharp or flat. (There are 7 different ones, and 5 sharps(#)/Flats(b) ).

When in the key of C major there are no sharps and flats. This is represented as 0 in the Circle of Fifths. It has 0 #'s/b's. As you progress through the Circle to the right, you add a # to each key. The order the keys go is C-G-D-A-E-B-F#-C#. The trick here is that for each sharp you add, you keep. So C=0, G=F, D=F/C, A=F/C/G and so on. The order is FCGDAEB. If you look closely, it relates to the circle of fifth order as well, just starting on the F rather than the C. (Do your own homework and check out the circle of fifths b's in major. Than check out the circle of fifths #'s/b's in minor)

The minor circle works the same way. The A minor scale has zero #'s/b's as well. So you can play all the notes without the sharps and flats and you can be playing the A minor scale. This known as the relative Major/Minor relationship.

Now you are thinking... HEY! How can I play the SAME NOTES and be playing TWO KEYS with DIFFERENT QUALITIES (Major and Minor).

Well, it depends on the key you start on, in this case, either C or A. Let me explain something else before we get into that.

C C# D # E F F# G G# A A# B C. From each letter to the next (C-C# or E-F) it is known as a half step or a semi tone. It is the smallest increment of movement in Western music. SO! C-D is two half/semi steps/tones (This is known as a whole step/tone).

C- D-E- F-G-A--B-C
W-W-H-W-W-W-H
(I tried to line up the spaces between the notes with W and H (WHOLE AND HALF) to represent the DISTANCE between the two notes.)
WWHWWWH is the MAJOR PATTERN. You start on ANY NOTE and play this pattern, you will be in a major key!

A- B-C- D-E-F--G-A
W-H-W-W-H-W-W
WHWWHWW is the MINOR PATTERN! You can start on ANY NOTE and play THIS pattern and you will be in a minor key!

These patterns determine the Major or minor scale.

(If you play C minor scale, opposed to C Major, you will have 3 flats. These are called parallel Major/Minors)

Okay, so now you know why a scale is a scale. In each scale, there ARE MAJOR AND MINOR CHORDS! There is also a DIMINISHED CHORD!

C-E-G is a MAJOR TRIAD. Read about intervals and triads. If you count C as 0 than count 4 semi tones: C#/D/D#/E, you have reached the MAJOR THIRD. Count 3 more (E being 0) (F/F#/G), you have reached the FIFTH (Which is called PERFECT). This is the formula for a MAJOR TRIAD (4 semi steps, than 3 semi steps). For minor do the inverse (3 semi steps, than 4 semi steps). C(0) Db/D/Eb, THAN from Eb(0) E/F/Gb/G. So your MINOR TRIAD in C is C-Eb-G. All you did was lower the third by a semi step.

I KNOW!!! I counted flats for the minor and sharps for the major. That is because C minor uses flats and not sharps. (ALMOST ALL cases, if you use a sharp you DO NOT use a flat. Vice verse, use a flat DO NOT use a sharp.) Just so you know, F# is the SAME note as Gb. They are ENHARMONICALLY EQUIVALENT.

SO!!!!!!

The notes in C MAJOR represent the CHORDS you will play.
CEG
DFA
EGB
FAC
GBD
ACE
BDF

If you look at the SCALE CDEFGABC, you form a TRIAD by taking your ROOT (First note of a CHORD) and skipping each letter to form the TRIAD (It will consist of a ROOT, THIRD and FIFTH). Look at the CHORDS I have listed above, and relate it to the SCALE.

The chord progress of a MAJOR SCALE can be represented by ROMAN NUMERALS. They have a certain pattern. A capital means MAJOR and lower case means MINOR. A DIMINISHED is represented by a small o (Think of the temperature degree symbol).

MAJOR: I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, viio, I.
I RECOMMEND you start at C, count the formula for a triad in MAJOR to actually count out the steps to making a MAJOR TRIAD. Do the MINOR pattern for D (ii). When you get to B (viio) you will count 3/3 (DIMINISHED chords are a MINOR CHORD with a LOWERED FIFTH).


Any questions, if I was unclear, or something is confusing, feel free to ask!
The first time you read through this, you may be confused... THAT IS NORMAL!!! It is not easy to start understanding all of this. The simplest things are deeply rooted in complex things!
Click to expand...
Hey man, i really really really appreciate your help =)!! It wasnt that hard for me to understand most of the concepts you explained because i do know very basic theory, but some things are still a bit confusing :/. Thanks for taking your time to help me =)
 
#18
Papa Dangerous said:
Although it is a good thing to know the notes and key of the chords, there is just a ton of information in that. I would never say to not know it but just knowing various patterns of the chords along with the proper scale degree quality, that should be more than enough.

Using the intervals to their potential will allow you to easily access the M3 if needed without knowing that is going to be F# (for example).

If you are playing major, than you should know that your 1 4 5 are going to be major chords. Your 2 3 6 are minor and your 7 is diminished. Just know how to approach the next chord (If you are going from Root to 5th than know the proper patterns to get there) and just play a major chord pattern.


Also, can you be a bit clearer? I understand how you say you have a hard time memorizing the notes and chords in each key but do you mean you have a hard trying to think... "Okay, I need to play a M5 here, but I do not remember what note is the 5th" or "I need to play a M5 but I do not remember which note is the 3rd in this key"

Or is it.. "I have to play a 5th... I do not know if it has to be Major or minor"

or *insert example*


P.S. I have to get off comp soon, I will try and get back to this tonight, if not tomorrow!
Click to expand...
Hey, i have a question about what you are saying, when you give f# as an example does that mean f major? Also, do you know where i could get the chord progression order for minor scales? (You know the roman number thing u talked about) =) Thanks
 
#19
Papa Dangerous said:
DO YOURSELF A BIG FAVOR AND MAKE SURE YOU READ THROUGH ALL THIS IF YOU ARE SERIOUS ABOUT TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THEORY. IT IS NOT EASY AT FIRST SO DO NOT GET DISGRUNTLED! TAKE IS SLOW!

There are twelve tones, so technically each can have a major and minor scale pattern. However, there are more than just major and minor scales. As for chord, there are major, minor, diminished, augmented, and a few others but not necessary to know at the moment.

You are correct in understanding that if you are in the key of C Major, you can use all the notes that are not sharp or flat. (There are 7 different ones, and 5 sharps(#)/Flats(b) ).

When in the key of C major there are no sharps and flats. This is represented as 0 in the Circle of Fifths. It has 0 #'s/b's. As you progress through the Circle to the right, you add a # to each key. The order the keys go is C-G-D-A-E-B-F#-C#. The trick here is that for each sharp you add, you keep. So C=0, G=F, D=F/C, A=F/C/G and so on. The order is FCGDAEB. If you look closely, it relates to the circle of fifth order as well, just starting on the F rather than the C. (Do your own homework and check out the circle of fifths b's in major. Than check out the circle of fifths #'s/b's in minor)

The minor circle works the same way. The A minor scale has zero #'s/b's as well. So you can play all the notes without the sharps and flats and you can be playing the A minor scale. This known as the relative Major/Minor relationship.

Now you are thinking... HEY! How can I play the SAME NOTES and be playing TWO KEYS with DIFFERENT QUALITIES (Major and Minor).

Well, it depends on the key you start on, in this case, either C or A. Let me explain something else before we get into that.

C C# D # E F F# G G# A A# B C. From each letter to the next (C-C# or E-F) it is known as a half step or a semi tone. It is the smallest increment of movement in Western music. SO! C-D is two half/semi steps/tones (This is known as a whole step/tone).

C- D-E- F-G-A--B-C
W-W-H-W-W-W-H
(I tried to line up the spaces between the notes with W and H (WHOLE AND HALF) to represent the DISTANCE between the two notes.)
WWHWWWH is the MAJOR PATTERN. You start on ANY NOTE and play this pattern, you will be in a major key!

A- B-C- D-E-F--G-A
W-H-W-W-H-W-W
WHWWHWW is the MINOR PATTERN! You can start on ANY NOTE and play THIS pattern and you will be in a minor key!

These patterns determine the Major or minor scale.

(If you play C minor scale, opposed to C Major, you will have 3 flats. These are called parallel Major/Minors)

Okay, so now you know why a scale is a scale. In each scale, there ARE MAJOR AND MINOR CHORDS! There is also a DIMINISHED CHORD!

C-E-G is a MAJOR TRIAD. Read about intervals and triads. If you count C as 0 than count 4 semi tones: C#/D/D#/E, you have reached the MAJOR THIRD. Count 3 more (E being 0) (F/F#/G), you have reached the FIFTH (Which is called PERFECT). This is the formula for a MAJOR TRIAD (4 semi steps, than 3 semi steps). For minor do the inverse (3 semi steps, than 4 semi steps). C(0) Db/D/Eb, THAN from Eb(0) E/F/Gb/G. So your MINOR TRIAD in C is C-Eb-G. All you did was lower the third by a semi step.

I KNOW!!! I counted flats for the minor and sharps for the major. That is because C minor uses flats and not sharps. (ALMOST ALL cases, if you use a sharp you DO NOT use a flat. Vice verse, use a flat DO NOT use a sharp.) Just so you know, F# is the SAME note as Gb. They are ENHARMONICALLY EQUIVALENT.

SO!!!!!!

The notes in C MAJOR represent the CHORDS you will play.
CEG
DFA
EGB
FAC
GBD
ACE
BDF

If you look at the SCALE CDEFGABC, you form a TRIAD by taking your ROOT (First note of a CHORD) and skipping each letter to form the TRIAD (It will consist of a ROOT, THIRD and FIFTH). Look at the CHORDS I have listed above, and relate it to the SCALE.

The chord progress of a MAJOR SCALE can be represented by ROMAN NUMERALS. They have a certain pattern. A capital means MAJOR and lower case means MINOR. A DIMINISHED is represented by a small o (Think of the temperature degree symbol).

MAJOR: I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, viio, I.
I RECOMMEND you start at C, count the formula for a triad in MAJOR to actually count out the steps to making a MAJOR TRIAD. Do the MINOR pattern for D (ii). When you get to B (viio) you will count 3/3 (DIMINISHED chords are a MINOR CHORD with a LOWERED FIFTH).


Any questions, if I was unclear, or something is confusing, feel free to ask!
The first time you read through this, you may be confused... THAT IS NORMAL!!! It is not easy to start understanding all of this. The simplest things are deeply rooted in complex things!
Click to expand...
I re-read all of it and i still have some doubts,
a) When i play the diminished 7th, you say its a minor triad with lowered fifth, lowered fifth by Half tone or whole tone or what does that mean? =)
And my other doubt is, when you give the list of the chords i can play on the c major scale, those are triads right? and all of those notes are natural, or however you call notes that are not sharp or flat, and thats perfect to what i understand, But what happens if i want to play something other than triads, then the other notes like the 2nd,4th,6th,7th are not all natural right and then if i play those they will be out of key and then i dont know what to dooo!!!?? :/ ahhhhhhhhhh i dont understand anything sorry:/
I mean what happens if there is not even a guitar playing chords to follow to and im just improvising then what notes can i play if i dont play chords?? What if its a bass solo and then i need to do more than just triads can i play all the notes on every chord of every note in the scale???!!! =(

Sorry if i dont understand im kind of slow but i really appreciate your help =) and if you feel that im just too dumb then dont even answer me haha =)
 

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