how do modes work, really?

[Derrick Wiggins]

This may have been covered already.

We have tonal and then there is modal.
Tonal will resolve V-I.
Modal will not resolve. There is no V-I in modal.

If you are using modal notes over a tonal chord progression the V-I resolution will not let the modal sound (mood) cut through. You are playing, in effect, just another scale.

Modal is played over a modal vamp. The two chord modal vamp does not resolve, which lets the modal mood sustain through out it's use.

Suggest a Google on modal vamps.

Where was this covered, please?

 

[Papageno]

Oscar Peterson taught that chords are made from scales. Open up and explore to learn that music is boundless and not restricted to any one train of thought.

Thanks for the kind invitation to "open up and explore to learn"... (very elegant)

I believe I'm already quite literate in music theory and harmony, but I'm always eager to learn more, by studying, and by searching myself. Interestingly, the more I learn, the more I realize the amount of things I am ignorant about; so, by learning my ignorance actually increases at least as much as my knowledge...

 

[Derrick Wiggins]

Thanks for the kind invitation to "open up and explore to learn"... (very elegant)

I believe I'm already quite literate in music theory and harmony, but I'm always eager to learn more, by studying, and by searching myself. Interestingly, the more I learn, the more I realize the amount of things I am ignorant about; so, by learning my ignorance actually increases at least as much as my knowledge...

Beautiful!!! I'm here to learn because where "Modes" are concerned, I'm not as knowledgeable as I'd like to be. HELP!!!

 

[Derrick Wiggins]

I just played a V - I progression and played in my left hand a G alt chord and in my right hand 3 notes of E (beginning on the B, descending) alternating with 3 notes from Ab, 3 notes of E, 3 notes of Ab for two octaves until I resolved on the G while playing the CM7 chord. Very interesting. Is this one way that modes are used?

 

[Papageno]

Beautiful!!! I'm here to learn because where "Modes" are concerned, I'm not as knowledgeable as I'd like to be. HELP!!!

Concerning the use of modes, it is important to distinguish between modal music, and tonal music, as I discuss in this post.

 

[Derrick Wiggins]

Concerning the use of modes, it is important to distinguish between modal music, and tonal music, as I discuss in this post.

Thank you!!!

 

[Papageno]

I just played a V - I progression and played in my left hand a G alt chord and in my right hand 3 notes of E (beginning on the B, descending) alternating with 3 notes from Ab, 3 notes of E, 3 notes of Ab for two octaves until I resolved on the G while playing the CM7 chord. Very interesting. Is this one way that modes are used?

G7alt is a shorthand notation for G7(b9,#9,b5,b13), i.e., G B Db F Ab A# (usually spelled Bb) Eb. If You lay out these as an ascending scale, you get the G altered scale G Ab Bb B Db Eb F (which has the same notes as the Ab melodic minor scale, but the root is G here not Ab). But there is no E in this scale, as alt usually implies a b13.

If the chord you want is G7(b9,13) then you can use the HW-diminished scale, i.e., 1 b2 #2 3 #4 5 13 b7 (an octotonic scale). For G, this is G Ab Bb B C# D E F (and it has a major 13th, E). The G HW-dim scale contain many triads: G, Gm, Bb, Bbm, C#, C#m, E, Em, Abdim, Bdim, Ddim, Fdim (but not Ab major), and tetrads: G7, Bb7, C#7, E7, Abdim7.

This way of using notes belonging to a given scale (or mode) to play over a given chord or harmony, is indeed how modes can be used in tonal music. The important point to observe, is that not all notes are equally important: some notes (the root, 3rd, 7th) outline the harmony very clearly, some others (9th, 13th) add color, and some (11th in chords with a major 3rd, minor 6th and minor 9th in minor chords) sound dissonant and should be used as passing tone (unless dissonance is what you want, of course).

Discussing this in terms of modes is just one way of organizing the notes that sound interesting with a given chord in the a context of tonal functional harmony.

 

[Derrick Wiggins]

G7alt is a shorthand notation for G7(b9,#9,b5,b13), i.e., G B Db F Ab A# (usually spelled Bb) Eb. If You lay out these as an ascending scale, you get the G altered scale G Ab Bb B Db Eb F (which has the same notes as the Ab melodic minor scale, but the root is G here not Ab). But there is no E in this scale, as alt usually implies a b13.

If the chord you want is G7(b9,13) then you can use the HW-diminished scale, i.e., 1 b2 #2 3 #4 5 13 b7 (an octotonic scale). For G, this is G Ab Bb B C# D E F (and it has a major 13th, E). The G HW-dim scale contain many triads: G, Gm, Bb, Bbm, C#, C#m, E, Em, Abdim, Bdim, Ddim, Fdim (but not Ab major), and tetrads: G7, Bb7, C#7, E7, Abdim7.

This way of using notes belonging to a given scale (or mode) to play over a given chord or harmony, is indeed how modes can be used in tonal music. The important point to observe, is that not all notes are equally important: some notes (the root, 3rd, 7th) outline the harmony very clearly, some others (9th, 13th) add color, and some (11th in chords with a major 3rd, minor 6th and minor 9th in minor chords) sound dissonant and should be used as passing tone (unless dissonance is what you want, of course).

Discussing this in terms of modes is just one way of organizing the notes that sound interesting with a given chord in the a context of tonal functional harmony.

G7alt is a shorthand notation for G7(b9,#9,b5,b13), i.e., G B Db F Ab A# (usually spelled Bb) Eb. If You lay out these as an ascending scale, you get the G altered scale G Ab Bb B Db Eb F (which has the same notes as the Ab melodic minor scale, but the root is G here not Ab).


But there is no E in this scale, as alt usually implies a b13.

If the chord you want is G7(b9,13) then you can use the HW-diminished scale, i.e., 1 b2 #2 3 #4 5 13 b7 (an octotonic scale). For G, this is G Ab Bb B C# D E F (and it has a major 13th, E). The G HW-dim scale contain many triads: G, Gm, Bb, Bbm, C#, C#m, E, Em, Abdim, Bdim, Ddim, Fdim (but not Ab major), and tetrads: G7, Bb7, C#7, E7, Abdim7.

This way of using notes belonging to a given scale (or mode) to play over a given chord or harmony, is indeed how modes can be used in tonal music. The important point to observe, is that not all notes are equally important: some notes (the root, 3rd, 7th) outline the harmony very clearly, some others (9th, 13th) add color,
and some (11th in chords with a major 3rd, minor 6th and minor 9th in minor chords) sound dissonant and
should be used as passing tone (unless dissonance is what you want, of course).

Discussing this in terms of modes is just one way of organizing the notes that sound interesting with a given chord in the a context of tonal functional harmony.

Good stuff!
Regarding the G alt chord, I like how Herbie Hancock alternates from the Ab HW diminished scale to the WH diminished, i.e., Descending - F Eb D C to Db B Bb Ab and resolves on either C major or minor. I love the way that is used with an alt. chord.

 

[ics1974]

I find practicing modes via MILLPAD has helped my playing allot. I do use them to mentally see the scale tones surrounding the chord tones. Then I can choose to use them for fills and what not. I find them useful to know what are chord tones, scale tones and chromatic notes

 

[Malcolm35]

I find practicing modes via MILLPAD has helped my playing allot. I do use them to mentally see the scale tones surrounding the chord tones. Then I can choose to use them for fills and what not. I find them useful to know what are chord tones, scale tones and chromatic notes

Yes all three need to be in our tool chest. We then reach in and get the correct tool for this specific need. Keeping in mind are we using tonal or modal for our chord selection.

 

[MrLenny1]

Scott Devine of SBL has a good video on it that helped me.
"The Only scale you need to Know". The major scale, it's all in there.

 

[Snarf]

Modes are best used on internet forums to make it sound like you know more/are more accomplished than you really are.

 

[Pacman]

Scott Devine of SBL has a good video on it that helped me.
"The Only scale you need to Know". The major scale, it's all in there.

Where can I find harmonic minor in the major scale? Melodic minor?

 

[JimmyM]

I find modes fun to know, I find they might give you cool ideas for riffs you may not have thought about doing without them, but when it comes time to play, it's all about what sounds like music to me, and I get everything I need out of the key signature and the chords.

 

[Malcolm35]

Yes, because everyone else is playing over a TONAL progression. If you bring in some modes, and the guys are laying down a tonal progression, you end up playing just another scale as the V-I resolution will not let the modal mood cut through. Nothing wrong with this just realize you are still tonal.

Tonal is over a V-I.
Modal is over a vamp.

That's why when the director says, OK one and a two.... you went back to tonal. Very few good ole boy bands get off into modal.

IMO....

 

[Spin Doctor]

...I get everything I need out of the key signature and the chords.

Don't look now, but that's exactly what modes are...

 

[JimmyM]

Don't look now, but that's exactly what modes are...

I would disagree, but I respect the confidence of the phrasing of your attempted "Gotcha" moment. Modes limit you to seven notes. Key sigs and chords never limit you in any way. Want to play any of the other 5 notes at any time? Go right ahead. Oopsie, but you're stuck following along this mode for this chord and those 5 notes aren't in the mode but you really want to play one, and you can't!

 

[Spin Doctor]

I would disagree, but I respect the confidence of the phrasing of your attempted "Gotcha" moment. Modes limit you to seven notes. Key sigs and chords never limit you in any way. Want to play any of the other 5 notes at any time? Go right ahead. Oopsie, but you're stuck following along this mode for this chord and those 5 notes aren't in the mode but you really want to play one, and you can't!

If you see it that way, that's on you. I certainly understand your limited viewpoint since that's the typical talkbass MO. But you're not stuck doing anything unless that's your choice. It's music not math

 

[JimmyM]

If you see it that way, that's on you. I certainly understand your limited viewpoint since that's the typical talkbass MO. But you're not stuck doing anything unless that's your choice. It's music not math

Oh, without a doubt you're free to play out of the mode. But there are two things about that I have to ask...

1. If you pop out of the mode, what purpose does going through the extra layer of modal translation from brain to hands serve if you're not going to use it? Can't you get what you need quicker and more efficiently just by knowing the key sig and the chords?

2. True, modes are not iron boxes from which there is no escape, but they're sort of laid out to newbs that way, and to get the most out of them, it's suggested to dissect every chord and try different modes to find the mode(s) you can use over the chords. So it's not like the idea that playing out of the mode is often suggested, but in fact, discouraged, no?

3. The "limited viewpoint" thing was one of the funnier examples of passive-aggressiveness I've seen.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Oh, without a doubt you're free to play out of the mode. But there are two things about that I have to ask...

1. If you pop out of the mode, what purpose does going through the extra layer of modal translation from brain to hands serve if you're not going to use it? Can't you get what you need quicker and more efficiently just by knowing the key sig and the chords?

2. True, modes are not iron boxes from which there is no escape, but they're sort of laid out to newbs that way, and to get the most out of them, it's suggested to dissect every chord and try different modes to find the mode(s) you can use over the chords. So it's not like the idea that playing out of the mode is often suggested, but in fact, discouraged, no?

3. The "limited viewpoint" thing was one of the funnier examples of passive-aggressiveness I've seen.

Well, in my opinion you (along with 99% of the talk bass population) are overthinking this whole mode thing by a wide margin.

It's just seven notes man. It's the same seven notes no matter what mode you call it. So if you want to call it Phyrgian or George or Fred or Aeolian it doesn't matter. It's just seven notes LOL.

The possible harmonic structure of those 7 notes defined as a mode is based on what? That's right. The chords and the key center. How you choose to manipulate those seven notes is strictly up to you as a musician. If you leave one note out, that doesn't make it some other mode. If my guitar player is playing an A Minor 7 chord, and I play a bunch of notes in C major, and even starting on C, that doesn't make it ionian. It's still Aolian.

And that's the point. A lot of people make modes into some kind of linear structure. It's not, unless you're into playing medieval Gregorian chants. It's a melodic pitch collection based on the harmonic underpinning created by the chords. It has nothing to do with playing mode x over chord y. That's just a tool that was created by music schools to try to teach modes, but that's not what it's honestly about.

Now I've been around here long enough to know that any discussion about modes is just an exercise in futile wankery. It's a thing where you either get it, or you don't. But I do know that you're not going to learn much about modes from anybody on talk bass. I get my information from high level players and I just do what they say to do. My concern for the typical musings of talk-bass folk is pretty close to zero. So I don't say your viewpoint is limited to be passive aggressive I just see it as being the facts. I can honestly tell you just don't get it. You still think modes are just strings of notes, strictly based on whatever chord is being played, and I'm here to tell you that's not what it's all about.

You can believe it or not believe it. I mean I really just don't care. If you want to be right I'll just say you're right and we can be done with this whole conversation.

But speaking to your point of simplifying the approach. To me, all modes do, is give you a way to break up a major scale in discrete chunks, so you can learn to manipulate that major scale from your lowest note to the highest note. Because when it's all said and done it's just one big ass scale, from the 1st fret to the 24th.