how do modes work, really?

[JimmyM]

Well, in my opinion you (along with 99% of the talk bass population) are overthinking this whole mode thing by a wide margin.

It's just seven notes man. It's the same seven notes no matter what mode you call it. So if you want to call it Phyrgian or George or Fred or Aeolian it doesn't matter. It's just seven notes LOL.

The possible harmonic structure of those 7 notes defined as a mode is based on what? That's right. The chords and the key center. How you choose to manipulate those seven notes is strictly up to you as a musician. If you leave one note out, that doesn't make it some other mode. If my guitar player is playing an A Minor 7 chord, and I play a bunch of notes in C major, and even starting on C, that doesn't make it ionian. It's still Aolian.

And that's the point. A lot of people make modes into some kind of linear structure. It's not, unless you're into playing medieval Gregorian chants. It's a melodic pitch collection based on the harmonic underpinning created by the chords. It has nothing to do with playing mode x over chord y. That's just a tool that was created by music schools to try to teach modes, but that's not what it's honestly about.

Now I've been around here long enough to know that any discussion about modes is just an exercise in futile wankery. It's a thing where you either get it, or you don't. But I do know that you're not going to learn much about modes from anybody on talk bass. I get my information from high level players and I just do what they say to do. My concern for the typical musings of talk-bass folk is pretty close to zero. So I don't say your viewpoint is limited to be passive aggressive I just see it as being the facts. I can honestly tell you just don't get it. You still think modes are just strings of notes, strictly based on whatever chord is being played, and I'm here to tell you that's not what it's all about.

You can believe it or not believe it. I mean I really just don't care. If you want to be right I'll just say you're right and we can be done with this whole conversation

Alright, I'm listening. Point me to some high level writings on the topic that best express your POV, please.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Alright, I'm listening. Point me to some high level writings on the topic that best express your POV, please.

Go take some lessons. That's what I did. Janek Gwizdala or Rich Brown would be more than happy to show you the stuff. I'm not trying to be your teacher. I've already spent too much time with this. Like I've got nothing better to do than try to convince you of things you've already got your mind made up about.

 

[GoesThump]

Where can I find harmonic minor in the major scale? Melodic minor?

Beat me to it. It's a strange statement to call a major scale "everything you need to know", but on a resurrected 10 year old argument about modes I suppose anything can happen.

Other critters not found there include octatonic scales, or modes of limited transposition.

GT

 

[JimmyM]

Go take some lessons. That's what I did. Janek Gwizdala or Rich Brown would be more than happy to show you the stuff. I'm not trying to be your teacher. I've already spent too much time with this. Like I've got nothing better to do than try to convince you of things you've already got your mind made up about.

Oh good God, man, how you've suffered!

 

[yodedude2]

here's one of my favorites (scale, mode, whatevs!): Double harmonic scale - Wikipedia

but no traditional major scale to parse out of that ...

 

[Snarf]

Oooooh yes, Talkbass delivers!

 

[glocke1]

I've read the conservatory, asked my teacher, another jazz guy, a couple friends and some really great guitarists, and still; I get multiple (sometimes contradictory) explanations of what modes are and how the work.

Can anyone explain it in a new way that may help me to understand?

Thank you very much

(BTW I did search the forums and didn't find what I'm looking for)

Well, here I am about to expose my ignorance. I'll go back and read through this thread and see if it enlightens me or de-confuses me later but my immediate reply is this.

with a couple of decades of playing behind me and various periods of time where I've dabbled in learning jazz, I've never been able to fully wrap my head around modes and have also gotten contradictory explanations.

I've run into people from time to time, generally folks with not a whole lot of theory background ramble on about modes but I was always left with the impression that they didn't really have a firm grasp on them either and they were essentially just " throwing big words around ".

To this day other than knowing what dorian, lydian and mixolydian are, I'd probably have to do a google search to identify any other modes if someone were to throw them at me.

I've always found that thinking in terms of chords is far more useful and makes my brain hurt less. For example if someone tells me a chord is maj7♯11, that just tells me to raise the 4th a half step if Im playing or improvising. Thinking in those terms hurts my brain far less than remembering what each individual mode is.

 

[wazzel]

Well, here I am about to expose my ignorance. I'll go back and read through this thread and see if it enlightens me or de-confuses me later but my immediate reply is this.

with a couple of decades of playing behind me and various periods of time where I've dabbled in learning jazz, I've never been able to fully wrap my head around modes and have also gotten contradictory explanations.

I've run into people from time to time, generally folks with not a whole lot of theory background ramble on about modes but I was always left with the impression that they didn't really have a firm grasp on them either and they were essentially just " throwing big words around ".

To this day other than knowing what dorian, lydian and mixolydian are, I'd probably have to do a google search to identify any other modes if someone were to throw them at me.

I've always found that thinking in terms of chords is far more useful and makes my brain hurt less. For example if someone tells me a chord is maj7♯11, that just tells me to raise the 4th a half step if Im playing or improvising. Thinking in those terms hurts my brain far less than remembering what each individual mode is.

If it makes you feel any better, I have ben playing bass since the 80's and how modes work just clicked a year or so ago. When just using chord tones, you really don't need them. If you expand your lines to more than chord tones they help you stay in key. Once I figure it out it became clear why I got "jazz notes" every once in a while. It helped me out. Don't ask me what mode name gets played over what scale tone. I gave them all numbers and dropped the name. Made it much easier for me to remember mode 3 goes with scale tone 3.

 

[glocke1]

If it makes you feel any better, I have ben playing bass since the 80's and how modes work just clicked a year or so ago. When just using chord tones, you really don't need them. If you expand your lines to more than chord tones they help you stay in key. Once I figure it out it became clear why I got "jazz notes" every once in a while. It helped me out. Don't ask me what mode name gets played over what scale tone. I gave them all numbers and dropped the name. Made it much easier for me to remember mode 3 goes with scale tone 3.

Honestly, when thinking in terms of chords like that, I simply consider any non-chord tone to be a passing tone/chromatic element. To me thats just simply a far more logical way of thinking about things. It's probably an oversimplification to some, but it works for me.

At the end of the day someone saying #4 or #11 just registers in my brain far more quickly than reciting the name of a mode and trying to link that up to a scale.

ETA: Not entirely sure whats meant by " how modes work " either. Like I said I'll read back through the thread for enlightenment but that statement , " how they work ", makes it sound as if they are some kind of mysterious musical element

 

[wazzel]

Honestly, when thinking in terms of chords like that, I simply consider any non-chord tone to be a passing tone/chromatic element. To me thats just simply a far more logical way of thinking about things. It's probably an oversimplification to some, but it works for me.

At the end of the day someone saying #4 or #11 just registers in my brain far more quickly than reciting the name of a mode and trying to link that up to a scale.

I think in chord tones most of the time also. So I get totally where you are coming from. I spent time on modes and scales over the past few years to be able to move past just playing chord tones. Just one more tool I have now.