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how do modes work, really?

#281
Richard Lindsey said:
I'm also not a big fan of this "scale/mode to every chord" approach *as a blanket approach to playing through chords in a piece*. (I make the qualification because there are times when it can be useful.)

We've been over this ground several times in this thread already, but perhaps the biggest reason I mistrust this approach in functional harmony, especially for people just starting to get a handle on harmony, is that it tends to encourage an approach of looking at chords in isolation--"atomistically," if you like--when really the idea is more to connect them in the larger framework--"holistically," if you like that kind of thing. The whole meaning of key (or modality, for that matter, if properly understood) is that the various events that occur within it *are* linked somehow; you don't invariably go to a separate harmonic world every time you go to a new chord.
Click to expand...

I studied harmony extensively in the mid to late 70's. I quit playing for a few years. I got back into it, reviewed my old lessons and bought some books on soloing. I was in Germany and needed an English speaking teacher, with a lot of flexibility since I was in the Army. In the mean time I worked out what modes to play over what chords. I just found those charts, complicated chord sheets with even more convoluted modes written in. It is no wonder I didn't get anywhere. I was doing better soloing when I only knew chords. When I found a teacher modes were only covered for modal music.

Modes are very simple really, so simple that the use of them probably requires a teacher, they are the most misunderstood basic object in music theory. These threads are always as convoluted and contain as misinformation as legal advice threads.

No flame to the guys who have doled out good info.
 
#282
This was posted in another thread:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f22/music-theory-book-free-download-790165/

Go to the Advanced chapter about modes.

Perhaps this writer's words are simpler to understand what Modes Really are. This quote sums it up very well:

"In other words, whenever a vamp is played with a triad or more complex chord, the mode is implied by the chord. Once again if the chord is part of a tonal sequence, the mode is implied by the chord progression, not by the fingering pattern you happen to use to play the notes of that tonality. If you remember this, you will avoid most of the confusion around modes and patterns."

Very well stated!
 
#283
251 said:
Modes work by introducing combinations of intervals that are tonic & different from each other. Lets say the chord of the moment is a maj6. Many Jazz players will start their solo on the 3rd or 7th of the chord of the moment. That immediately introduces an unexpected interval to the listener when the root is sounded by the bass. If the note following the 3rd is the 5th, the listener hears a minor interval which the soloist could not do, in key, when limited to the root of the chord of the moment. Likewise starting on the 7th following it with the 2nd. The audience hears a minor interval played over a major chord. Of course, things often get more complicated than that.

So to partially answer your question, modes work by engaging the audience in unexpected ways that often sound melodic & are in key. You are so accustomed to hearing it, the special nature of what is done doesn't impress you any more. It is there, nevertheless. Listen closely & perhaps write what you heard to better see & hear what is being done. JS Bach is the Father of modal composition. Perhaps you will find some Bach in your Library?

Hope that helps. 8-)
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Best response so far.

Simply put, familiarizing yourself with modes will make you a much more competent and interesting player. Practicing these scales will help your technique, soloing, and make you much less afraid of notes past the 5th fret.

Check out this video my brother did on modes and apply it to bass, it will improve your playing 100%. Guaranteed.

[edit] Unless you're content playing root 5 octave the whole time. Also, if anyone wants, PM me and I'll send you the PDF for that video. Definitely a good exercise.

‪Modal Arpeggios‬‏ - YouTube
 
#284
Etchbass said:
Best response so far.

Simply put, familiarizing yourself with modes will make you a much more competent and interesting player. Practicing these scales will help your technique, soloing, and make you much less afraid of notes past the 5th fret.

Check out this video my brother did on modes and apply it to bass, it will improve your playing 100%. Guaranteed.

[edit] Unless you're content playing root 5 octave the whole time. Also, if anyone wants, PM me and I'll send you the PDF for that video. Definitely a good exercise.

‪Modal Arpeggios‬‏ - YouTube
Click to expand...

No comment on whether this exercise "will improve your playing 100%. Guaranteed".

However, this video has nothing to do with Modes. This is simply an exercise in harmonizing, by way of arpeggiating, an F Major scale.

Listening all the way through, it never leaves the Key of F Major.

Once again a misunderstanding of what Modes are. :rollno:

I do see that it could help with hand dexterity, though.
 
#286
mrekoj said:
anyone shared this ?
from wiki
Musical mode - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

in short

Ionian I C T-T-s-T-T-T-s
Dorian II D T-s-T-T-T-s-T
Phrygian III E s-T-T-T-s-T-T
Lydian IV F T-T-T-s-T-T-s
Mixolydian V G T-T-s-T-T-s-T
Aeolian VI A T-s-T-T-s-T-T
Locrian VII B s-T-T-s-T-T-T
Click to expand...

Probably page one of this thread.

But the topic is: "how do modes work, really?"

I'll restate this:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f22/music-theory-book-free-download-790165/

Go to the Advanced chapter about Modes.

Perhaps this writer's words are simpler to understand what Modes Really are. This quote sums it up very well:

"In other words, whenever a vamp is played with a triad or more complex chord, the mode is implied by the chord. Once again if the chord is part of a tonal sequence, the mode is implied by the chord progression, not by the fingering pattern you happen to use to play the notes of that tonality. If you remember this, you will avoid most of the confusion around modes and patterns."
 
#288
Modes create "Giant Steps" or augmented chords. There are 4 augmented chords (C - E - G#, Db - F - A,
D - F# - Bb and Eb - G - B). I'm not suggesting that I know what modes are, however, I discovered that modes create augmented chords and I now wonder how these major 3rd intervals can be used to create interesting solos. Anyone care to further this exploration?
 
#289
Someone probably wrote it already, but modes are a way of organizing notes in relation to a tonal center.

For a tonal center C, one has:
C lydian = C D E F# G A B (1 2 3 #4 5 6 7)
C ionian = C D E F G A B (1 2 3 4 5 6 7)
C mixolydian = C D E F G A Bb (1 2 3 4 5 6 b7)
C dorian = C D Eb F G A Bb (1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7)
C aeolian = C D Eb F G Ab Bb (1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7)
C phrygian = C Db Eb F G Ab Bb (1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7)
C locrian = C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb (1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7)

It always puzzles me when hearing people saying they don't understand modes. There is nothing to understand(*). One just needs to play them, learn hearing their characteristic sound, recognize them.

For example, "Scarborough Fair" is a dorian tune. The characteristic note of dorian (natural 6) is played only once in the tune (it is the "ry" in "Rosmary and thyme"). But that single note gives the tune its unmistakable dorian character; replace it by a b6 instead, and it is not "Scarborough Fair" any more, but a much darker aeolian tune.

(*)That the same set of notes constitute a different mode when taken in relation to a different tonal is what seems to confuse some people; that's why I think it is preferable to introduce all modes in relation to the same tonal center, as I did her, instead of shifting the tonal center for a given set of notes, as done frequently.
 
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#290
Derrick Wiggins said:
Modes create "Giant Steps" or augmented chords.
Click to expand...

Sounds oversimplified to me. Chords yield scales , scales yield chords. Saying one "creates" another feels wrong.

If you harmonize the melodic minor or harmonic minor the III chord is augmented. But I'm pretty sure augmentes chords existed before modal analysis.

Giant steps is a sequence of ii - V - I whose key center cycles in major thirds. No single mode you yields such a progression. But I guess you could argue the key centers move through an augmented chord... was Coltrane thinking "Imma play this mode here and that mode there..." ? Doubtful.
 
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#292
Derrick Wiggins said:
Modes create "Giant Steps" or augmented chords. There are 4 augmented chords (C - E - G#, Db - F - A,
D - F# - Bb and Eb - G - B). I'm not suggesting that I know what modes are, however, I discovered that modes create augmented chords and I now wonder how these major 3rd intervals can be used to create interesting solos. Anyone care to further this exploration?
Click to expand...
Modes are completely diatonic (they are built on the intervals of the major scale), so I don't see how they can "create augmented chords" which are completely non-diatonic. Could you elaborate on what you actually mean, pls?
 
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#293
Here we go; if you do the intervals of the C Ionian backwards you'll discover that you have the following:
C Dorian - C-D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb (Bb scale)
C Phrygian - C-Db-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb (Ab scale)
C Lydian - C-D-E-G#-G-A-B (G scale)
C Mixolydian - C-D-E-F-G-A-Bb (F scale)
C Aeolian - C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb (Eb scale)
C Locrian - C-Db-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-Bb Db scale)
or the following:
C-Bb-Ab-G-F-Eb-Db
Looking at the C Ionian mode backwards helps you see that it is indeed an Ab Ionian. Looking at the Ab Ionian mode backwards helps you see that it is indeed an E Ionian and looking at the E Ionian mode backwards helps you see that it is indeed a C Ionian.
So, you have C Ionian, E Ionian and Ab Ionian; an augmented chord by moving backwards with the intervals of the Ionian mode.
It gets equally interesting when you move backwards using the intervals of the other modes.
Let's explore and not try and poke holes.
 
#294
This may have been covered already.

We have tonal and then there is modal.
Tonal will resolve V-I.
Modal will not resolve. There is no V-I in modal.

If you are using modal notes over a tonal chord progression the V-I resolution will not let the modal sound (mood) cut through. You are playing, in effect, just another scale.

Modal is played over a modal vamp. The two chord modal vamp does not resolve, which lets the modal mood sustain through out it's use.

Suggest a Google on modal vamps.
 
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#295
Malcolm35 said:
This may have been covered already.

We have tonal and then there is modal.
Tonal will resolve V-I.
Modal will not resolve. There is no V-I in modal.

If you are using modal notes over a tonal chord progression the V-I resolution will not let the modal sound (mood) cut through. You are playing,in effect, just another ytscale.

Modal is played over a modal vamp. The two chord vamp does not resolve, which lets the modal mood sustain through out it's use.
Click to expand...
I'm finding out that modes from Ab Ionian can be used in the key of C, i.e., G7 to CM7
Chord: F-Bb-B-Eb
Scale: Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab Bb
to
Chord: E-G-B-D
Scale: C Ionian (beginning with the 7th interval)
IJS
 
#296
Derrick Wiggins said:
Here we go; if you do the intervals of the C Ionian backwards you'll discover that you have the following:
C Dorian - C-D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb (Bb scale)
C Phrygian - C-Db-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb (Ab scale)
C Lydian - C-D-E-G#-G-A-B (G scale)
C Mixolydian - C-D-E-F-G-A-Bb (F scale)
C Aeolian - C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb (Eb scale)
C Locrian - C-Db-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-Bb Db scale)
or the following:
C-Bb-Ab-G-F-Eb-Db
Looking at the C Ionian mode backwards helps you see that it is indeed an Ab Ionian. Looking at the Ab Ionian mode backwards helps you see that it is indeed an E Ionian and looking at the E Ionian mode backwards helps you see that it is indeed a C Ionian.
So, you have C Ionian, E Ionian and Ab Ionian; an augmented chord by moving backwards with the intervals of the Ionian mode.
It gets equally interesting when you move backwards using the intervals of the other modes.
Let's explore and not try and poke holes.
Click to expand...
What you write does not make any sense to me. Sure, you can manipulate and transform scales from one into another, but so what? And in any case, it makes no sense to write that "C Ionian, E Ionian and Ab Ionian" build "an augmented chord". Chords are not made of scales.
 
#297
Papageno said:
What you write does not make any sense to me. Sure, you can manipulate and transform scales from one into another, but so what? And in any case, it makes no sense to write that "C Ionian, E Ionian and Ab Ionian" build "an augmented chord". Chords are not made of scales.
Click to expand...
Oscar Peterson taught that chords are made from scales. Open up and explore to learn that music is boundless and not restricted to any one train of thought.
 

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