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how do modes work, really?

There's a lot of misunderstanding of modes here - as well as misinformation.

If anyone can, after playing this, convince me that it's not in a Phrygian mode, but 'really' just D Major, there's a special prize waiting for you.

beggar_boy.jpg


By the way, I do NOT subscribe to the jazzbo teaching method of assigning a different mode to every chord in a tune.
 
without calling modes useless, would it still be true that some people incorrectly use the term "modes" to refer to guitar and bass scales practiced in various fret positions? I.e. I know all the natural tones all over the fretboard. I practice those patterns - from 1st through 12th position. Does that mean that I'm playing "C Major" scale when I'm on the VII position, but an "A Minor" scale when I'm on the V position? Not really, because unless I'm soloing to a chord progression I'm not really playing music at all - I'm practicing patterns.

That's the way Bill Edwards explains it in "Fretboard Logic" - he even says that many teachers misuse the term.

When you first learn to play all over the fretboard you learn position scale patterns. They are NOT modes (unless you're playing them in a particular chordal context). Just like you don't play notes (you play tones, of which "notes" are a character represenation on paper or possibly a name, like "C"), you also don't play modes outside of a song or composition.

As to real MODES, I am still trying to wrap my brain around them - it's a process. I suspect that I don't really run into a lot of modal music (which I would attempt to play). I have a deep interest in them, but being a late starter I doubt I'll ever fully develop a command of them via my instruments (guitar and bass).

Mostly I live in Major, Minor and Pentatonic/Blues lands.
 
without calling modes useless, would it still be true that some people incorrectly use the term "modes" to refer to guitar and bass scales practiced in various fret positions?

I think your statement is correct.

I've seen this:

|| iim7 V7 I || OR || Dm7 G7 | Cmaj7 ||

With a set of instructions to play a D Dorian scale (over the Dm7), then a G Mixolydian (over the G7), then a C Ionian scale (over the Cmaj7).

Too much to think about. You'll sound like a college jazzbo. Better to just use the collection of notes commonly labeled C Major Scale. It'll work. In this context, go with Thaos627's assertions.
 
BTW BassyBill; thanks for the link; I'm pulling plenty out of your thread. I just needed it broken down to a really simple level for me :D
Good to know, thank you. I think I might be forgiven for quoting some of my explanation (edited slightly) from that thread here, as it may be useful to anyone who finds this thread of yours in a future search. A few people just starting out in their study of modes seem to have found this clearly written, and I'd like to thank anyone who has done so for taking the time and trouble to read it carefully, as there's quite a bit of information in there (although I did limit this to natural modes and will leave synthetic modes for another time).

As a learner, I found it helpful to think of scales and modes like this. I don’t think understanding all this will automatically make you a better player – all I’m trying for here is to satisfy those who have a healthy curiosity and a desire to learn. The only prior knowledge you’ll need is:

· A basic knowledge of note names
· An understanding of what is meant by a semitone interval (“a one fret step”), a whole tone interval (“a two fret step”) and an octave interval (a twelve semitone gap between two notes that share the same name - the higher one, incidentally, being twice the frequency of the lower).

Now, here’s a challenge for you. You have to play notes on your bass, following these rules:

1) You have to play eight notes.
2) The first and last note must be an octave apart.
3) You must make each note you play higher than the last one.
4) You are only allowed to use semitone and whole tone (often abbreviated just to “tone”) steps or intervals.

If you meet all these requirements, we’ll call what you’re playing a scale (more about modes in a bit). There are some scales that use different rules, but we don't need to get into that until a bit later.

There are quite a few ways to do successfuly tackle this challenge. Here’s one very common one, starting on C and just playing the “natural” notes (no sharps or flats).

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

We have a scale! In fact, this is the very familiar major scale - the C major scale, as we're starting on C. The pattern here as you go up in pitch is tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitone. Of course, you can continue further in pitch by starting again, but this time keeping going to make a two octave scale:

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

Notice that the pattern of tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitone happens between the first C note and the second, and again between the second C note and the third.

Now, look at what you get if you play a selection of notes from this sequence, starting on the second and ending on the ninth.

D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D

We have another scale! Eight notes, covering an octave interval, using just whole tone and semitone intervals. But it sounds very different to the first scale we played. This is because we have a different pattern of intervals (tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitone, tone). Because we're starting on the second note, we can call this scale the second mode of the first one – we’re playing the same notes (still no sharps or flats), but we’ve changed the pattern of intervals and this makes it sound very different.

Okay people, you’ve no doubt already worked out that we can make other scales using these same notes. We could start on the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, or 7th note of our original scale to make the following modes from it:

E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E
F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F
G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G
A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A
B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B

None of these have the same pattern of tone and semitone intervals found in our first or second examples in the post above. So now we have seven different ways of playing a scale that meets the rules we set out earlier – that is, seven different modes, all based on the C major scale. They sound different to one another because they all use a different sequence of semitones and tones to climb one octave in eight notes.

The modes all have names, just to give you more stuff to learn! They are as follows:

First mode of this scale – Ionian
Second mode of this scale – Dorian
Third mode of this scale – Phrygian (this has a nice Spanish Flamenco sound to it)
Fourth mode of this scale – Lydian
Fifth mode of this scale – Mixolydian (quite a bluesy sort of sound to this)
Sixth mode of this scale – Aeolian (the “natural minor” scale)
Seventh mode of this scale – Locrian

We have seen that we have seven different ways (so far) of covering our one octave range in tone and semitone steps. What makes each of these ways or MODES different to the others is the order in which we play the tone or semitone steps. For reference, the order of steps for each mode is summarised here, in abbreviated form (T=tone, S=semitone):

Ionian - T, T, S, T, T, T, S (our usual “major scale”)
Dorian - T, S, T, T, T, S, T
Phrygian - S, T, T, T, S, T, T
Lydian - T, T, T, S, T, T, S
Mixolydian - T, T, S, T, T, S, T
Aeolian - T, S, T, T, S, T, T (the “natural minor” scale)
Locrian - S, T, T, S, T, T, T

The next important thing to understand is that we could choose to play any of these patterns using any note as our starting point. For example, if we played the first pattern of tone and semitone steps starting from the note A, we would have the scale A Ionian (or A major). Again for reference, here are the notes for each mode when starting on A. Notice that in each one, we use all the note letters A to G and then add sharp signs or flat signs to get our correct sequence of tone and semitone intervals in each case.

A Ionian – A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, A
A Dorian – A, B, C, D, E, F#, G, A
A Phrygian – A, Bb, C, D, E, F, G, A
A Lydian – A, B, C#, D#, E, F#, G#, A
A Mixolydian – A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G, A
A Aeolian – A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A
A Locrian – A, Bb, C, D, Eb, F, G, A

So, there we have seven (so far) different ways of getting across the octave interval from A to A using tone and semitone steps. Seven different modes, each one sounding different to any of the others because it has a particular pattern of intervals between the notes in the scale.

As you play these patterns on your bass, you’ll notice that each one has its own sound or "musical flavour". And each one also has a particular set of patterns in terms of the fingering used. This can help you to learn the modes in a way that enables you to play any of them from any starting point. But do remember what I pointed out earlier – just being able to play different modal scales all over your bass won’t make suddenly turn you into a great player. I do think, though, that understanding all this can help you work out which notes are likely to create the lines you want to play, but we still have a little way to go before we can start to look at how this stuff can be applied in that way.


A quick question, in your original post speaking about C and modes, your notation as you moved down (?) the modes also changed the note; i.e. C D E F G A B C, then you moved and said, D E F G A B C D. You had me there very well.

However, in the discussion above about the A modes, you kept A in your notations all the way through. Why the change? And, is there a difference?

Nope - no difference. I changed the starting point in the first set of examples to show how the different patterns were all derived from the original C scale.

But in the second set, I started each one on A, just to emphasise that you can start any of them on whatever note you like and don't have to start from a particular point. So, there was some method in my choices and I hope this answer is clear enough for you to see what I did and why. You may find a really careful re-read of the first bit of this helps at this point, especially in the light of what I just said here.

Link to the original thread:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f22/bassy-bills-beginners-basic-guide-scales-modes-631295/
 
ok so then, where would I use modes? How would i use them?

The kind of situation Stick Player alluded to above is such a place. One context in which to use modes is a situation where what's going on harmonically is better described as modal than as conventionally major/minor in a functional harmonic sense. That is, when a piece or musical sequence can be said to be "in" A lydian, say, rather than E major.

If you're not sure what I mean by functional harmony, maybe do a little research on it.

You would use a mode the same way you use the scale associated with a key--to help guide your choice of notes. If you know the chords of a piece, they will tell you what your primary note choices are likely to be, but how you connect them and the non-chord tones you use in your lines are governed by the tonality or modality you happen to be working in at the time.

Did you read the Bernstein link I posted earlier?
 
The real question is....

What mode is best for metal?:hiding:











Ionian of course:D
But that would depend on which sub-sub-sub genre of metal you were hoping to play (in your friend's garage). For nu-metal, you'd be best tuning your bass C# - Fb - A - Db and playing in E# Superlocrian mode (regardless of what else was happening in your immediate vicinity). But for black metal, you should retune to G - A - W - D, turn all the lights off and play in F Hungarian loud enough for the pizza delivery guy to know which door to knock.
 
Interesting topic. Its worth the time to check out the link Richard posted to the Bernstein lecture. The script is worth the time, but to really understand the subject get the musical selections that he picked; The Association, The Beatles, The Kinks, Brahms, Debussy... a great collection of music that shows the power of the modes. Each one is a small world of unique sound and musical posibilities.
 
No offence intended, but I think that is unlikely to help somebody asking for a clear, basic explanation. I would imagine (forgive me if I'm wrong) that what you wrote is pretty much incomprehensible to the OP, even though it's technically spot on.

It's really difficult to explain a concept like this helpfully in just one brief post. And it's good to remember the old adage, "teaching is not just telling". Teaching something clearly is a skill that takes a lot of practice to acquire and one's own knowledge is an essential but not sufficient ingredient in doing this well. Bear with me...
No offense taken, Bill. If the OP has gotten to dealing with modes, it is also time to hear what is being played from the listener's POV. Less than that is the tail wagging the dog, aka solos of endless scales & patterns with little melodic value.

Modes are difficult to grasp as a concept because they just look like the same scale. 'Look' being the operative word. They look the same on a chart but sound different in subtle ways. The show down over; Is this Phrygian or Dmaj is a good illustration <no offense intended, it is a relevant point>. The answer is "yes" if you are reading rather than listening. I suspect this thread is too fragmented to go much deeper than that with any focus.

Thx for sharing your thoughts. I find what you say really interesting. 8-)
 
Everyone here is overthinking it, ignore the nomenclature for now and take the modes for what they are in a practical sense: a way to connect the entire fretboard in any key and still be in key. Think geometrically about them.

Well, but that's not really what they are in any sense that I can see. They would be of no real value if that were all they were, because they would add nothing. You can "connect the entire fretboard in any key and still be in key" without any recourse to modes, and do so more simply and effectively IMHO. It sounds as if you're really talking about positions rather than modes.
 
Hey guys,
Modes each have there own personality… to really get into this don’t practice them like this… C Ionian for a little while, D Dorian for a few minutes, E Phrygian for a few more etc etc. Practice them over a drone, for example use your E string as a drone, first play E Ionian, then E Dorian, next E Phrygian etc etc. That way you start to learn the ‘sound’ of the mode.

As for what are modes??? In simple terms think of it like this…

Any major scale has 7 notes… Easy!

Each note of the major scale has a chord built from it…

Each chord has a corresponding scale... these are the modes.

So there’s a little more to it than that but once you get your head round ‘what’ the modes are then you can start to learn them and there individual sounds.

Piece a cake!!!

Scott.

Free Online Bass Lessons - Scott's Bass Lessons
Link Removed
 
+1

To the original poster go get yourself a copy of the Guitar Grimoire, Scales and Modes. It seriously changed my life. It's a guitar book so just ignore those high strings:cool:

A bass grimoire is also available.

But, simply knowing a book full of scales (= mode, it's just a word to describe the musical context of a scale) is not very useful without knowing the the functions and harmonic relationships of those scales.
 
Well, but that's not really what they are in any sense that I can see. They would be of no real value if that were all they were, because they would add nothing. You can "connect the entire fretboard in any key and still be in key" without any recourse to modes, and do so more simply and effectively IMHO. It sounds as if you're really talking about positions rather than modes.


Ok well let me rephrase that as I was typing my answer while hopping off the subway.

You can connect the entire fretboard using the modes and your ideas will work harmonically. I can play an idea in C major in 1st position using C ionian or I can play over C major in 5th position - G Mixolidian, or anywhere else, i.e 3rd position or E Phrygian and my idea will still work harmonically over C major and be in line theoretically. I can play across the entire fretboard and use the entire harmonic range of the instrument this way. While this is still very basic it's still effective. It doesn't touch on the whole gamut of other ways you can add variety i.e melodic minor modes, diminished scale, chord substitutions blah blah blah blah....

Sure you connect the fretboard without any recourse to modes but your choices are limited. I can play a 3 octave C major scale but that's very rudimentary.


If you think if i geometrically it makes more sense. Geometrically as in not viewing the modes as scales but looking at them as patterns that span the entire fretboard.
 

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