How do you combat Neck Dive?

[Rip Topaz]

Wow, sorry I missed your messages about the Duostrap.

I use the tension strap with mine, because my main bass is a limited edition Fender, but I haven't used a set screw on the tension strap because of the risk (and probability) of the screw scratching the crap out of the back of my bass. I guess I could put a piece of tape over the set screw on the tension strap and that would minimize any damage.

It isn't a perfect setup, because the second strap is free to slide around on the tension strap, but it lets me avoid any damage from the screws.

I've got a TON of back problems (six different surgeries so far), but like my handicap placard for my van I only use the Duo when I feel I need it. If I'm having a day that I feel strong, I use a normal single strap. Likewise for my handicap placed. I only use it when needed and if I'm ok that day, I leave the good parking spots for someone who needs them more than I.

That said, the Duo really changed the game for me as there are days where it's all I can do to stand while playing. Those are the days that I use the Duo.

The second strap hooks into the tension strap and if you don't know by looking at it, it DOES look like there's a strap button on the back of my bass. I wouldn't be totally against drilling into my second in line (a new MIM P) but there is no way I'm drilling a hole in the back of my 60th Anniversary P-bass! I'd feel pretty bad about drilling the MIM because I love that bass, but if needed I would drill the hole.

*Also Note:

If our order the Duostrap be sure to get the extra long tail for it. Without the extension, the strap sits WAY high.

 

[BROCK WOOD]

Wear a belt. Insert strap through belt (between pants & belt) & connect strap back to rear strap pin.

 

[Stealth Fighter]

I've probably already said this, but in case I haven't, buy a Fender. I've never had one neck dive.

 

[Rip Topaz]

My MIM P dives a bit. Not the worst ever but I always use a grippy strap.

 

[bassbenj]

I've probably already said this, but in case I haven't, buy a Fender. I've never had one neck dive.

Then you didn't buy the right Fender! Neck dive happens when the bass balance point isn't properly placed between the strap ends. This is what the upper horn does. Goofy ideas strictly for looks (like a T-bird which not only doesn't have an upper horn... it's on the BOTTOM... but moves the support point back to the base of the neck) gives you neck dive. A Fender example is the Tele body basses. No upper horn. I've got a Carlo Robelli 8 string like that. Dives like mad! I had to extend neck-side strap button out on a rod to stop the dive.

Even worse, I've got a Steinberger spirit headless. In this case once again there is no horn and button is at base of neck. Because it's headless there is no weight so neck dive is not a problem. BUT I find that without the horn out to the 12th fret the position of the instrument with respect to my body is way off. It throws off my playing by a couple of frets! I suppose I could get used to it with practice, but I don't want to! I'd rather have that bass feel like my other basses! So I'm looking into installing a bracket to move the strap button out where God intended it to be!

 

[Honch]

On, say, SG basses and the like (ES/LTD Vipers) the upper horn is short and doesn't end above the 12th fret. They neck dive. Some place two strap holders, one here:

And the other one at the neck plate (just for show, another bass this time, but you know what I am getting at):

Invalid Link Removed

They use special straps that you can punch holes in both at the rear part of the strap and the front. Normally there's only one hole to be used, at the front of the strap.

SOME models have doubled the rear strap pin holders on the back of the body. One beneath the normally place center of the body (aligning with the bridge) and one above it. But it's all elusive, at best. The point of where the strap buttons are placed.

Or, as someone else pointed out, you can try out these Slingerstraps too...

Guitar Straps & Bass Straps from Slinger Straps


Or like this?

Or even better, the HEADS UP STRAP but that one went belly up (ha!) some years ago, a weighted strap, in which you put weighs in, it may be only available on second hand market:

Prevent Neck-Heavy Guitar Headstock Diving | Guitarless

I think, you can use same strap with different basses then. Just as you use a ballast in/on a boat, you take off or add some weights. I think there's other variations to this. You have to be wary though, because that amount of weight at one strap button may rip the threads out provided that the wood is soft. You may have to re-bore or re-thread with putting in a hard rock maple piece of wood first.

But by and large, I think basses should, and could be made without neck diving in the first place, without changing anything in looks or sound, or dead spots. It's the density of the material/wood in the body and neck that are the culprit. Those two have to be "balanced".

For example I find it peculiar that so many bass manufacturers relies on 5 piece laminated hard maple necks, but attaches it to bodies of swamp ash, alder, and other lightweight wood, just to produce a "warm" tone. Depending on the design of the body, I've found out - when removing the neck completely PLUS the hardware - and weighed it, the bare wooden neck weighs considerably more than the body (of course the body is without hardware too). Even Dingwall ABZs and Combustions suffers from this. But those are the 5ers.

That's why I've always loathed any chambered, or hollow bodied bass. They always neck dive, and has a much lighter body that can't be balanced in any way. I've never ever have seen or played a bass that sounded and looked so cool that I could live with the neck dive and trying to cope with it. Boutique manufacturers like Fodera has somewhat bucked this on their large multistringed instrument with having the exagerrated les paul shape and has the upper portion of the neck to go with the body, meaning you can't have any "thumb over" on the neck while playing.

 

[Honch]

Even worse, I've got a Steinberger spirit headless. In this case once again there is no horn and button is at base of neck. Because it's headless there is no weight so neck dive is not a problem. BUT I find that without the horn out to the 12th fret the position of the instrument with respect to my body is way off. It throws off my playing by a couple of frets! I suppose I could get used to it with practice, but I don't want to! I'd rather have that bass feel like my other basses! So I'm looking into installing a bracket to move the strap button out where God intended it to be!

The early Steinbergers with no body (paddles) had this "harness" or plate that was of plastic and molded and shaped like the body/torso. So the mounting point was just one hole in the back of the body. You could do a windmill spin with the bass provided you had no cables attached! So you stuck your regular strap to that one and hanged the small body on the middle pivot point. Although it didn't neck dive, it just bounced around and wiggled while playing. You could NOT leave your hands up in the air, and make it stay put. Then it actually neck dived. Which means that you really shouldn't have one point to fix the bass on to. Even later on spin offs on that bass such as most other headless and especially Klein K-basses, was just that that the 12th fret "showed up too early" on the fretboard. This was by design. Because it was a priority that you could have easy access to the upper frets, and leeway towards the 24th fret. I e just as "free" and airy access to every fret on the neck. This had nothing to do with the horn out to the 12th fret position, because the Klein K-bass really had (here's a comparison to the paddle, but it's about the same):

Link Removed


However, Steinberger Spirit came/comes in different made shapes, there's one with full body:

And as you can see, the neck end and heel is about at the last 2 frets, because that reach was a priority. But nevertheless, this seems a bit OT, since most headless doesn't actually neck dive at all. On the picture above, I think it would be worthwhile and better if Steinberger stuck their neck a bit up into/onto the body, as you can see on the Klein bass. Up there you can very well have your thumb behind the neck plate when playing those few spots on the neck, and then you would have the 12th fret showing up like on any other bass. Of course, you just can't MOVE the neck up unto the same body because it will throw off the scale completely, you have to do the body a bit different in shape and design.

But it still wont neck dive!

 

[jazzyvee]

I'm sure I have read somewhere of people taping car wheel balancing weights into the control cavity to adjust the neck dive. Clearly the weights need to be insulated to prevent any chance of shorting out anything.

 

[Stealth Fighter]

Then you didn't buy the right Fender! Neck dive happens when the bass balance point isn't properly placed between the strap ends. This is what the upper horn does. Goofy ideas strictly for looks (like a T-bird which not only doesn't have an upper horn... it's on the BOTTOM... but moves the support point back to the base of the neck) gives you neck dive. A Fender example is the Tele body basses. No upper horn. I've got a Carlo Robelli 8 string like that. Dives like mad! I had to extend neck-side strap button out on a rod to stop the dive.

Even worse, I've got a Steinberger spirit headless. In this case once again there is no horn and button is at base of neck. Because it's headless there is no weight so neck dive is not a problem. BUT I find that without the horn out to the 12th fret the position of the instrument with respect to my body is way off. It throws off my playing by a couple of frets! I suppose I could get used to it with practice, but I don't want to! I'd rather have that bass feel like my other basses! So I'm looking into installing a bracket to move the strap button out where God intended it to be!

Please, give me some credit. I understand the physics of neck dive. Have you thought that instead of others and me buying the "wrong" Fender, may it is you who are doing something wrong. Not saying that you are one of them, but I have seen people on TB complain about neck dive. Yet, when they post follow up pictures of them playing their bass, they are holding it almost vertical, like a DB. People, if you try to play the bass in positions other that where it was designed to be played, it is going to return to its natural position. That is not neck dive. I stand by my statement: I have NEVER had a Fender bass neck dive on me; I only play Precision and Jazz Fenders, with the exception of one Squier Precision.

 

[staccatogrowl]

Re: best neck dive solution:

. . avoid it in the first place. .

Other notable solutions with many recaps from this thread:

• wider straps
• grippy surface straps
• special configuration (contortion) straps
• different locations for strap mounts
• counterweights on bass or strap
  
• heavier bridges
  
• lighter tuners
• horn extenders (lengthened/spacered strap screws/mounts at upper horn)
• anchoring lower bout to a fixed object like a belt loop
• upper horn strap mount replacement device ( [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] ) or Steinberger strap hook extender https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http://static.musiciansfriend.com/derivates/19/001/213/003/DV020_Jpg_Jumbo_369900_installed.jpg&f=1
  
• shoe string trick on strap (Warwick forum Thumb bass neck dive remedy)
• install strap button on headstock like early Fender bass
• attach strap to headstock with a string like a cowboy guitar
• headless bass design with traditional body design
  
• arm pressure to hold bass body in proper position against your body
• use of fretting hand to hold neck high in desired position
• wear bass high so that even though bass neck is parallel to horizon, it offers proper left hand position (while strangling your neck and cramping your right hand wrist and arm)
• install a 3-foot-long extension, in order to play bass vertically like an upright bass
  
• velcro bass to proper position
• sit while playing, like a studio player
• accept it, savor it, live with it, forget about it

All of these and many more, just to remedy a design-based ergonomic issue. .

I explored many of these solutions before I sold my beloved Warwick Thumb basses. I miss their sound but not my perpetually sore left wrist.

PS
The Axe Balancer
(Not so) Heavy Metal | SF Guitarworks

 

[steve_rolfeca]

...People, if you try to play the bass in positions other that where it was designed to be played, it is going to return to its natural position. That is not neck dive. I stand by my statement: I have NEVER had a Fender bass neck dive on me; I only play Precision and Jazz Fenders, with the exception of one Squier Precision.

???

My '64 Precision had the narrow neck option, so basically a P-bass with a lighter neck similar to a dot-neck Jazz.

On a smooth leather strap, it neck dived like a #$@!! from horizontal, to the headstock pointing down toward the ground. At the slightest provocation...

The neck didn't fall like a hammer (like an EB or a Thunderbird), but still, it dived. All of the Precisions I've owned over the years that had full-sized tuners, had neck dive. That's only a sample of about a half-dozen, but still, it's contrary to your experience.

 

[Stealth Fighter]

???

My '64 Precision had the narrow neck option, so basically a P-bass with a lighter neck similar to a dot-neck Jazz.

On a smooth leather strap, it neck dived like a #$@!! from horizontal, to the headstock pointing down toward the ground. At the slightest provocation...

The neck didn't fall like a hammer (like an EB or a Thunderbird), but still, it dived. All of the Precisions I've owned over the years that had full-sized tuners, had neck dive. That's only a sample of about a half-dozen, but still, it's contrary to your experience.

I'd like to see video of that.

 

[Honch]

Look the only thing to measure neck dive is sitting down on a regular chair with leg 90 degree out. NO STRAP and no nothing. No foot stool. Just place your bass on the lap with your tigh in the carved position of the body, as all or most designs are (still) these days. Now, release your hands to the air. If it stays, it's a good one, if it neck dives OR body dives it's not balanced and you have to use excessive and fatiguing force of the fretting hand to keep it in line with whatever YOU are comfortable with.

I never ever - say - look at Warwick anymore. No matter how great they look or sound. I know that sooooo little could be added to the woods weigh, I e a little closer look when designing it, to make the exact same shape and sound follow without any neck dive.

And while I've never ever met one person who're looking for a bass that actually has got a neck dive (severe or slight) because those basses SOUNDS a peculiar way JUST BECAUSE OF the neck dive, I think the question is too obviuos in the first place. A basic and simple design flaw. I have met several persons who're chasing down basses without a neck dive because they have discovered that they basically sound the same as those who does. So they sell their Fender P&J basses that should have a ND stamped on the headstock anyway after make/model, as in ND = Neck Dive (Most Warwicks would benefit from this, like telling the customer a disclaimer or caveat before buying). And waits for something similar to show up, sans neck dive.

Because if you think it affects dead spots, sustain or timbre in general, there's so little weight that is needed to make the bass to not neck dive, that you wouldn't believe it. A friend of mine had active EMG pickups running on battery. One 9v. When he found out that they could be run at 18v, i e with TWO 9 volt batteries, and voila, his bass was in balance!

- - - - -

One thing more I have gripe with with todays manufacturers. They are trying to remove as much weigh and make lightwieght bodies of light wood because of the sound. But those basses actually feels much heavier when strapped on, than say a lot heavier bass with dense wood body BUT with no neck dive. I e if that bass is balanced and no neck dive at all (and no body dive as well) you can go up pretty high in weight before it feels unwieldy and too heavy.

And the list that Staccato-growl provided for us to dwell on, the Axe balancer, keep-head-up strap and everything in between, shows that there certainly is a need for this. However, that Axe balancer should contain led (lead? like the tire weights, or piano key weights. Steel is a bit too light.

 

[tonemachine]

Please, give me some credit. I understand the physics of neck dive. Have you thought that instead of others and me buying the "wrong" Fender, may it is you who are doing something wrong. Not saying that you are one of them, but I have seen people on TB complain about neck dive. Yet, when they post follow up pictures of them playing their bass, they are holding it almost vertical, like a DB. People, if you try to play the bass in positions other that where it was designed to be played, it is going to return to its natural position. That is not neck dive. I stand by my statement: I have NEVER had a Fender bass neck dive on me; I only play Precision and Jazz Fenders, with the exception of one Squier Precision.

But the way they wear their basses creates the same effect or sensation of neck dive so, since we dont have another name for it, it's fairly being called neck dive. The "normal" position of a bass isn't suitable for everyone's anatomy so people wear their basses in all sorts of positions to find the best position for themselves. This neck dive sensation can be remedied by the same things that fix your "true" neck dive. If it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck....it is a duck. It's not necessarily a design flaw, as one size can't fit all, so no need to blame the users for wearing their basses wrong. And disregard the trolls who like to imply that x bass is poorly designed. Fifteen other people will correct them.

 

[Stealth Fighter]

But the way they wear their basses creates the same effect or sensation of neck dive so, since we dont have another name for it, it's fairly being called neck dive. The "normal" position of a bass isn't suitable for everyone's anatomy so people wear their basses in all sorts of positions to find the best position for themselves. This neck dive sensation can be remedied by the same things that fix your "true" neck dive. If it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck....it is a duck. It's not necessarily a design flaw, as one size can't fit all, so no need to blame the users for wearing their basses wrong. And disregard the trolls who like to imply that x bass is poorly designed. Fifteen other people will correct them.

If I understand you correctly, I agree with you. In the case of someone holding the bass in a position other that the normal horizontal position, there is no need to blame the player or the design/bass. It's nothing more than a choice that they made for themselves, and IMHO, they need to learn to live with it or find a solution that suits them.

 

[godofthunder59]

I just live with it no big deal.

 

[alexander_gbass]

I apologize if there is a better section for this to be in.

I love my bass, and I'm not sure if its common with all basses, but my guitars never did this. There is a bit of neck dive that causes the bass to settle about parallel with the ground. The neck is at that point too low for me to comfortably play, so I end up holding the neck up which I'm sure ultimately hurts my potential in playing.

What do you do to fight it?

i use a 3 to 4 inch wide strap.. sits perfectly.. i have a bc rich warlock revenge and an esp b208 8 string.. threw a wide strap on.. perfect playability with comfort as well..

 

[bassbenj]

And as you can see, the neck end and heel is about at the last 2 frets, because that reach was a priority. But nevertheless, this seems a bit OT, since most headless doesn't actually neck dive at all. On the picture above, I think it would be worthwhile and better if Steinberger stuck their neck a bit up into/onto the body, as you can see on the Klein bass. Up there you can very well have your thumb behind the neck plate when playing those few spots on the neck, and then you would have the 12th fret showing up like on any other bass. Of course, you just can't MOVE the neck up unto the same body because it will throw off the scale completely, you have to do the body a bit different in shape and design.

But it still wont neck dive!

Not entirely OT, because we are talking about how a bass hangs on you with strap. A neck dive bass is one with a bad balance so it's natural position is with the headstock forced down. To play it level you have to grab the neck and apply a lifting force to it bring the neck back up level. For me, this gets very tiring. People use tricks like wide straps, velcro, super glue, sew the strap to your pants etc. to keep the bass from diving but it's really not fixing the balance problem but rather only limiting the amount the neck can drop.

The other thing I mention with my Spirit bass is the natural position (left and right) in front of you as the bass hangs naturally. With headless basses you are right that neck dive is not the problem. I found that seated (The Spirit has that little flipper thing to sit on your leg) if I set the bass on my left leg the neck is sticking WAY out to the left. All positions are way off! However, if you sit it on your right leg everything is about right. But now stand up. Because the buttons are on the edges of the rectangular body, the "right leg position" ain't gonna happen standing. Because that would require BOTH the strap buttons to be way left on your body, but the bass naturally hangs down your front! The bottom line is that standing the neck is forced way out to the left too far. Sure, there is NO neck dive at all because it's headless. But there is a bass strap support problem.

This actually gives me an idea! What if on the back of the Spirit (or even any of the neck divey basses) one mounts a long rod (longer than the body of the bass) parallel with the neck and back just a bit behind the bass. And you have two sliding blocks with strap buttons on them that you can clamp at any points on the rod so that when the bass hangs normally you can adjust it's neutral position left and right on the front of your body! Oh wait! I remember I tried something like this once on a guitar and because the support is behind the instrument it tends to flip forward with a rotation. This gets us back to why there is an upper horn. The support is along the centerline of the bass so it doesn't rotate and it moves the left end of the strap out so the bass hangs naturally in the correct position.

 

[Honch]

Right so bassbenj!

But people often confuses of how any bass will hang, and this can be remedied with putting on the strap differently. And it's because people "wears" and hangs the bass individually. When sitting down on any chair, any person, just remove the strap altogether, and put the bass on you right knee. Then all this "how it's strapped on" disappears. See which way it drops. Only then and there you remove all BS about strap this and strapknobs that. Very few basses I know of (Klein K bass excluded) does not stay in the same place when you get up from the chair, and let the strap take over how it balances.

Say that you have your strap set exactly in the sweet spot so it almost drops off you shoulder when sitting down. But it doesn't. I e the strap and the way it hangs, is basically the same as when you're sitting down without any strap. Now, most basses gets a little bit thrown askew when getting up. I would prefer the bass to stay put, and shouldn't change in any way from sitting down or standing up. There are a few of them out there, and they don't just have to be headless. Since the traditional design of the bass body is like that, that you have a curve made on the lower side of the body just for sitting down and let it rest on one of your legs, it must be that it should stay that way too, when standing up. Some tall people with longer arms (yes bass players caters to the taller ones) may have an awkward 90 degree angle picking arm, when sitting down and let it rest on the upper body bout (if they're not using free thumb and free arm position). So they may have to accomodate for such things.

Some basses with too small bodies (and that the upper horn is at a higher level than the rest of the body) makes the distance of the plucking hand too awkward and too short, just like all Steinberger paddle basses with square body.

If you strap your bass with a strap so high that it won't even rest on your leg while sitting down, then all this debate is pretty futile. But it can still neck dive. I say that how the strap or bass is hung on you isn't going to kill neck dive at all. Maybe mitigate it somewhat but only to a very small degree. People that can sit down with their basses on chairs for prolonged periods of time in the studio (WITHOUT ANY STRAP) benefits from balanced basses that doesn't neck dive no matter how tall or short they are.

- - - - - -

I've discovered, slowly as it has dawned on me throughout the years, that people with neck diving basses, are more prone to - sooner that later - sit down in the studio and play the bass. They don't really detect this themselves but when they're finally sitting down, they can use the bass more of a see-saw thing, and when they rest the plucking forearm on the upper bout of the body, they can "see-saw" it - balancing on their right leg - to tip over slightly at the body side, and not let the fretting hand take up the fatiguing work of keeping the neck/headstock at level. When asking them about it, they don't really know what or why they did it, usually the reply was "just getting tired, varying standing up, sitting down". Then later on down the road, when they bring a new bass that is by chance balanced, the tend to stand up for much longer periods of time, and play, and don't sit down that much. And they just don't know it, the "why", they can claim anything "just not getting that tired standing up.." and so on. And this was just not a coincidence.

- - - - -

So I do agree! coming to the conclusion of that any Steinberger (or the like) with small paddle square body, DOES NOT stay the same as when using the leg rest, compared to when getting up from the chair. Thus, a design flaw. Period.

FWIW it would turn out a very silent thread if anyone started a thread with a topic called "How do you combat body dive?" just to see how many basses there are out there having imbalance the other way. Personally, IMHO, I think there are. While they are not the same nuisance as of a neck dive, it's actually usually large multistringed headless boutique basses with some kind of high-tech grade material (graphite et al) in all of the neck but with dense wooden bodies. If they're six string basses, usually the body has to be too huge, and it drops that way instead. But it's a little niched, for sure, they are in the minority.

- - - - -

And the finaly little esoteric thing about neck dive instruments. Instruments (especially basses) that are balanced (even towards the body side) fares better when seated in a guitar stand, or in any gig bag. I e it matters when stored in any bag, and especially when hanging on hangers. It is of an extremely rare circumstances these things happens, but if the bass takes a fall! I've heard of a local store that had hung too many basses on a wall with music shop wall hanger on a plaster wall (not stone or wood). All of them on a rail, and 12 basses took a dive. They were hung up along the ceiling (i e the topmost row). Those with neck dive broke their headstocks (yes even Fenders) but those with heavier bodys landed on the floor with their bodies first, and the body took a hit but never broke a headstock. But that is a sort of, hmm....one should not let that happen in any case. Yes, the shop had insurance. It was NOT in the music shop I used to work in mind you. One of the larger ones in Sweden, when they relocated to new premises. And it happened during renuvating times before they've reopened.

 

[Watchootognbout]

Neck dive defined.
Where I want to play.

This is where the bass wants to go.I don't want to play in this position

After my anchor belt.