How do you critique a defensive musician?

[finalrequiem]

With a pink slip.

/witty comment.

Now, I'll read the OP.


EDIT: Awww man, Pbass beat me to it...

 

[Chebass88]

Perhaps the bassist decided his line is better than the original recording.

Have you tried to modify your parts to jive with the bass? Sometimes cover tunes in different styles turn out excellent (I submit Aretha Franklin's version of "The Weight" & Cake's version of "I Will Survive").

ian

 

[lafave]

BTW - I'm not playing keys on this song, just singing.


I have asked the others what they think and they basically stay neutral. Our rhythm guitarist told me that there is no critiquing him because he gets bent out of shape no matter how gently you lay it on him.

The bassist has brought his own handful of songs to the band and he talks major $hit when someone doesn't play it the way he wants. I figured that it was fair for me to point out what he was doing wrong based on his actions.

As far as firing him, it's not really up to me because I'm not a founding member.

Don't get me wrong, the band works great together, but I can't seem to not let his take on the song completely distract me.

 

[nortonrider]

.... but I can't seem to not let his take on the song completely distract me.

Tell them all that you would rather just cut the song from the set list as opposed to playing it wrong to the detriment of the band.

 

[lafave]

Anyone know how to share mp3s without using MySpace? I tried loading on YouTube with no luck.

 

[Nagrom]

I agree with Norton, drop the song. Next time, how about saying " I love the way this (original version) sounds, but what you're doing is interesting too." Might lead to an intelligent conversation about the difference in versions, which may open ears up somewhat.

 

[lafave]

Tell them all that you would rather just cut the song from the set list as opposed to playing it wrong to the detriment of the band.

I considered that.

I really dig this forum. All of you guys have given great advice! Thank you.

 

[Nagrom]

I've put songs on Youtube by making black movies. Someday I'll upgrade to slideshows....

 

[dannster]

If his inability to play this rather simplistic song is any indication of the overall talent in this band it may be time to move on. IMHO.

This is the kind of stuff that will eat away at you if it isn't adjusted to what you are willing to put up with. But like the others have said some better tact is in order.

Good Luck Sir!!

 

[mkrtu9]

My first rule of thumb in being diplomatic is to pick up the phone or speak face to face. Never try and have a conversation over email, txt, etc... Always stay humble and people will respect you.

 

[Jazzdogg]

Whenever I'm confronted by someone who'd rather be right than be thoughtful and considerate, my estimation of them declines markedly.

The neutral stance taken by your band mates leads me to believe they're probably trying to be thoughtful and considerate.

From what I've read so far, I've gotta ask why you seem to be so invested in being right.

 

[bassyeah]

He's the bass player, let him play bass however he wants.

+1 on this and several other comments... you sounded like you had a problem going into that email conversation IMO

 

[Mo'Phat]

Wow...read the thread...and I'm totally on his side, not yours.

When you said:
Me: Check out the way this guy plays the bass line for The Warmth. Any chance I can get you to play it like this?

I would have immediately said exactly what he said (I give a **** what some ****head on Youtube plays.) Why did you send him a link to some guy who's not even in the band? He's not Dirk. He doesn't play like Dirk, so why would you want your bassist to play like some guy not even in the band? Next time (if there is a next time...) send him this link:

Then when he said:
Him: Dude...you're being way too picky on that song. I'll give it a shot but we are never gonna get anywhere picking apart each person's role with a magnifying glass.

You should have just said, "Cool. Thanks man, I appreciate it. That song means a lot to me and...well...Dirk's bassline just moves me, y'know?"

Period.

That's how you critique a "defensive musician"...which is essentially what he did to you when he said he'd give it a shot.

Instead, you jump all over the guy. That was pretty messed up.

My opinion...I wasn't there, I don't know you guys and your history...just from what I read on this thread.

 

[blockinlay]

You tried to be too nice and came across as a whiner.

You're not children, don't mince words, or worry about feelings. Just tell the truth and be done with it.

If he can't handle it, move on to a beer summit with the president, and agree to disagree.

 

[MatticusMania]

move on to a beer summit with the president, and agree to disagree.

this is how I get over disagreements with my girlfriend

 

[MegaSwing]

LOL...maybe I should look at myself then. I appreciate the feeback!

If figured that I was going about it the right way, because he is constantly telling others what they are doing wrong on other songs. I fell like he can dish it, but can't take it.

Well, hell. If he himself tells people what they ought to be doing, then he had better shut up and listen himself. Every band has its political constructs. Nobody should be above reproach (unless they are the freaking meal ticket and they pay well) This sounds like a pretty basic one to me.

If his playing is substandard in any way, then that's a matter of competence. There would be a consensus about it, I think. If he arbitrarily changes the style of the song (which is very do-able for a bass player) and everyone else is okay with it, then you should be okay with it too.

His statement that it won't ever be perfect because he is not a professional player is ridiculous. You are either trying to get to the heart of the song or you should stay home. Professional just means someone gave you money for it once. It doesn't always guarantee quality.

In this situation, I'd just be myself and hold down my chair. If it ain't gonna work out, you'll get out of the band somehow or the band will fold. That's what bands do. You'll find a better opportunity elsewhere. Grooving bands work harder at staying together than not-happening bands. There's ALWAYS going to be something that isn't perfect.

I happen to play with a drummer who thinks he knows everything. Imagine that.

Maybe you ARE too picky.

Ain't nothin' but some show bidness. (Drama included in package price.)

 

[JohnMCA72]

There are some good, useful comments posted above, but I would like to say this...

Don't immediately dismiss this bassist just because you guys are having a tiff over this one thing. Do the two of you often have conflict such as this?

In my earlier days of bass playing my band took on a new drummer. He was good. I hadnt been playing all that long. I wasnt that good. The two of us often disagreed on things, especially when it came to the constructive stuff. We definitely bumped heads a few times. It didnt take long, though, before the two of us ended up becoming best friends and soon made a really strong rhythm section.

Like Teddy Roosevelt said "Speak softly and carry a big stick" meaning, choose your words lightly, put everything delicately, and have what you need to back up your statements. Have you talked to the rest of the band about it, without the bassist around so that you can get their honest opinions? If the rest of the band is ok with the way he plays it, and your efforts to speak softly to the bassist can't sway him, then leave it at that. If you really can't stand the way he plays the bass, then suggest maybe you guys not cover that particular song.

I would add to this: Had you gone to the others in the band first, & gotten their take on it, you all together might have been able to get the point across - hopefully, without making it a confrontational "gang-up" session. At the very least, you could have ensured their support and gone to him yourself. Without the other members' support, though, you've set up the situation where the bass player thinks they're "with him".

Unless you can really crank up some major diplomacy, I think you're stuck now.

JM

 

[jmattbassplaya]

Here`s the thing about cover songs that most people are missing -

You either A) play the song note for note like the original recording or most popular live performance, or B) you completely rewrite the song so that it becomes more or less your own creation so that when people realize it`s X song they go, "Holy $4!7, I didn`t know they were playing that!!" Like playing a Led Zeppelin tune reggae styled... Anything else just seems unprofessional, sloppy, or makes people think you`re lacking in talent. There`s no reason for the entire band to lose face because of one players, IMHO.

Since everyone else is doing it spot on, he either A) needs to fall in line B) rework the song into a new and creative form and present it to the band, or C) get the heck out. It`s a simple song anyways.

 

[Stumbo]

About a month ago, I asked him to listen to the way I play the song and if he could try to play it more like that.

So, about 30 days ago, you discussed the situation with the bass player and he answered:

He immediately told me that he didn't think I was playing it right, that my version was too busy, and that I'm also too picky.

So you had your answer. Did you stop there? Nooooooooooooo..............

I asked the rest of the band members what they thought and they stood neutral stating they liked both ways.

You took it to the other band members and they didnt' back you. Did you stop there? Noooooooooooooooooooooo.............

You then let it fester in your mind and just couldn't let it go.

So another month goes by and I decide to shoot him an email

Why????????????????

.....with a link to a YouTube video of some random guy playing the bass line the same why I play it hoping that he would reconsider.

Again, why was this still on your mind????????????

I sense a bit of OCD in there somewhere.

What you're doing is not motivating the bass player to change. And since the issue was settled when the other band members didn't back you, why couldn't you accept their judgment? I think that's the question you really need to answer. It doesn't sound like you'll last much longer in this band if you don't back off.

Just let it go and move on. Unless you don't want to be in the band anymore.

Btw, it sounds like you're still the new guy on the block and not getting much love from the other band members just because of this fact. I suggest you back off until you've been in the band for a year or two before you start throwing your musical weight around. Sounds like they're a tight group of friends with or without you. +1 on working on your people skills. It'll help in your non-band life as well.

 

[lafave]

I ended up calling him yesterday and apologizing for my email, and my relentless pursuit for his perfection. LOL!

What came next, blew me away. He told me that he hasn't been practicing any of the band's material outside of rehearsals, because he just views the band as a reason to get together with friends and get away from the girlfriend.

His reasoning is that when they lost their first drummer and lead singer earlier this year, it took the wind out of his sails. They weren't able to keep gigging and make money. He said that he isn't very motivated to put much time in because he fears that it will happen all over again. He also told me that he doesn't care for the song much.