Double Bass How do you deal with loud rooms?

[Michael Drost]

TB friends,

I’ve been playing a number of regular gigs lately...restaurants, private parties, and similar setting where there’s a lot of ambient noise and constant conversation. When the room gets loud, I find that the definition and character of the bass tend to disappear.


I’m wondering if anyone has advice, techniques, or even gear suggestions that have helped you keep the bass clear and present in these kinds of noisy environments.


For context, I’m currently using a Genzler/Gollihur Bass Combo on a stand with a Full Circle. In listening-room situations, I’ll also add a DPA mic, though that’s not really the issue here. My usual process is to EQ the bass to the space, sweep the mids for clarity, and add a bit of high end to taste. Though in louder rooms, that high end tends to get swallowed pretty quickly. This approach has worked for me for a while, but I’m always looking to improve.


If you have any tips, techniques, or creative solutions that help the bass cut through and stay clear when the room gets noisy, I’d really appreciate hearing them. Thanks so much! Just trying to make the best of the situations!

 

[Levin Hannaford]

Copious volume lol

On an actual constructive note, I favor Krivo magnetic pickup for the loud gigs. I mix in some of the Lifeline with a Redeye preamp, but only enough to add some body noise and round out the magnetic pickup.

WRT EQ, I find myself leaning on high mids instead of highs. I get into too much trouble that far up the neck anyways!

 

[Wasnex]

Basically sound masks sound. Whatever is louder is what you hear.

Sound can be direct or indirect. You get clarity from the direct sound. A small amount of indirect sound can potentially enhance your direct sound and create a sense of ambiance and space. Too much indirect sound tends to cause masking and the build up of mud.

To some extent the answer is simply to lower your expectation or stop taking jobs in overly noisy environments.

I have an approach that frequently helps me. You might hate it. I elevate my cab and aim it at my ears. The intent is to shoot the full range direct sound from my cab at my ears. Doing this has not impact on the level of indirect sound you hear, but it can increase the level of the direct sound, especially higher frequencies.

The issue with higher frequencies is they tend to be fairly directional, whereas low frequency shoot out from your rig in all directions. Since high frequencies are directional, if you place your cab flat on the floor they can shoot by below ear level. Meaning you won't hear them until they have bounced around a bit.

Another thing I do is to use EQ to help overcome masking. I like the hear a lot of color in my tone and also a clear, but delicate attack. So I tend to boost mids and dial in some air up top. I don't like a lot of gank in the high mids though.

I also like nice fat lows, but I find it's necessary to dial the lows back in order to get the clarity I like. At one volume level, the lows will make the sound muddy. Backing the lows off a bit often adds clarity and allows that mids to sound more open. IME, the more reverberant the environment, typically the more I dial back the lows.

This is not about choosing the ideal tone. I consider it a matter of choosing the compromise that best suits my tone goals. The actual fix for this problem is proper acoustic design and treatment. Acoustic design is expensive and should be done concurrently with architectural design. Unfortunately, acoustic design is frequently not even considered.

 

[Michael Drost]

Thanks, so far! I should mention, I do play with my speaker on a stand. Forgot that tidbit.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

My instinct is to dig in, but in truth the only real answer is either to turn up and compete with the room - which just usually makes the room louder and incurs the wrath of the club owner - or to just accept that it’s a background gig and go with that. I find that the latter is usual wiser.

 

[Jeff Kissell]

The nature of our beast is that all of the artifacts and subtleties that make upright basses sound like they do, don't really stand up to high volume and/or competition with other instruments. Drums, electric guitars, horns, etc. all create sound waves that literally obliterate those nuances in the room mix, and the ambient noise and hard surfaces don't help. If you can hear yourself and play with intention, then you stand the best chance of emoting and creating a meaningful experience. Laying down solid, supportive bass goes a long way towards making a sucky sounding gig at least tolerable even if your bass doesn't sound distinctly like an upright.

 

[CryingBass]

I am a fool compared to you guys.

But I kinda like the ambient sound on Gloria’s Step on Live from the Vlillage Vanguard. Whatever makes the crowd happy.

 

[Rocket Queen]

My instinct is to dig in, but in truth the only real answer is either to turn up and compete with the room - which just usually makes the room louder and incurs the wrath of the club owner - or to just accept that it’s a background gig and go with that. I find that the latter is usual wiser.

+1. I'm probably in the minority, but trying to "compete with the room" strikes me as fundamentally rude and self-absorbed. If the conversation is louder than your music, then that's simply a signal that you're not the main event, and that the attendees value communicating with each other more than listening to you.

 

[Hans Gruber]

Basically sound masks sound. Whatever is louder is what you hear.

Sound can be direct or indirect. You get clarity from the direct sound. A small amount of indirect sound can potentially enhance your direct sound and create a sense of ambiance and space. Too much indirect sound tends to cause masking and the build up of mud.

To some extent the answer is simply to lower your expectation or stop taking jobs in overly noisy environments.

I have an approach that frequently helps me. You might hate it. I elevate my cab and aim it at my ears. The intent is to shoot the full range direct sound from my cab at my ears. Doing this has not impact on the level of indirect sound you hear, but it can increase the level of the direct sound, especially higher frequencies.

The issue with higher frequencies is they tend to be fairly directional, whereas low frequency shoot out from your rig in all directions. Since high frequencies are directional, if you place your cab flat on the floor they can shoot by below ear level. Meaning you won't hear them until they have bounced around a bit.

Another thing I do is to use EQ to help overcome masking. I like the hear a lot of color in my tone and also a clear, but delicate attack. So I tend to boost mids and dial in some air up top. I don't like a lot of gank in the high mids though.

I also like nice fat lows, but I find it's necessary to dial the lows back in order to get the clarity I like. At one volume level, the lows will make the sound muddy. Backing the lows off a bit often adds clarity and allows that mids to sound more open. IME, the more reverberant the environment, typically the more I dial back the lows.

This is not about choosing the ideal tone. I consider it a matter of choosing the compromise that best suits my tone goals. The actual fix for this problem is proper acoustic design and treatment. Acoustic design is expensive and should be done concurrently with architectural design. Unfortunately, acoustic design is frequently not even considered.

I echo all of this. I think a great way to back off those lows is that oft-mentioned high pass filter. I never use it for electric but it's the most important piece of outboard gear I own for upright, followed closely by a tuner. You're able to maintain a pretty good amount of volume and clarity. The FDeck Model 3 is indispensable for me, I do a LOT of a loud rooms.

 

[dylanjohnson]

+1. I'm probably in the minority, but trying to "compete with the room" strikes me as fundamentally rude and self-absorbed. If the conversation is louder than your music, then that's simply a signal that you're not the main event, and that the attendees value communicating with each other more than listening to you.

I think we are speaking of being able to function musically vs competing. I only need to hear myself well enough to keep my intonation and sound in check. That can be very difficult in certain situations and depending on many factors, volume is not always the answer.

 

[DJ Bebop]

My instinct is to dig in, but in truth the only real answer is either to turn up and compete with the room - which just usually makes the room louder and incurs the wrath of the club owner - or to just accept that it’s a background gig and go with that. I find that the latter is usual wiser.

This right here
Is your group's name on the marquee or are you providing atmospheric background music especially during dinner hour?

If it's the former, it should be indicated by the MC as you are introduced that the show is about to start.

If it's the latter, be happy you got a gig and keep the group’s volume down so people can talk and your group continues to gets asked back by the venue

 

[Jmilitsc]

providing atmospheric background music especially during dinner hour

Almost all of my jazz gigs are duos in this setting, in a roughly 40 seat restaurant. Small enough that just 1 table’s conversations can drive the whole room’s volume. When it’s too loud for us, we shrug shoulders and try to keep it going w/out competing. Usually that’s the first set, and the crowd thins for the second set. If heads are bobbing and toes are tapping even in loud situations, or if ppl come up to us to ask for tunes or compliment, then it’s a good sign we’re meeting the moment.

Sometimes, not every time, when we sprinkle in recognizable pop or rock tunes, even at our same volume, that changes the vibe toward a little more crowd listening/attention, which we definitely have fun with when it happens, and often generates more tips.

Next 2 gigs will have a lot of holiday standards, should be interesting to see how that affects things in this thread’s context.

 

[basss]

On background music gigs you can't fight the crowd. If you turn up they will just yell instead of talk. If you bring an amp loud enough to play over the crowd you'll get fired. You can turn up mids to try to cut through but at a certain point you just have to accept the situation or don't take the gig.

 

[Michael Drost]

The nature of our beast is that all of the artifacts and subtleties that make upright basses sound like they do, don't really stand up to high volume and/or competition with other instruments. Drums, electric guitars, horns, etc. all create sound waves that literally obliterate those nuances in the room mix, and the ambient noise and hard surfaces don't help. If you can hear yourself and play with intention, then you stand the best chance of emoting and creating a meaningful experience. Laying down solid, supportive bass goes a long way towards making a sucky sounding gig at least tolerable even if your bass doesn't sound distinctly like an upright.

This is great, and generally how I handle these situations. I don’t engage in volume battles. I try to make the best of each situation, as they are a reality in my world, and make music with my fellow musicians despite the ambient noise.

 

[Michael Drost]

On background music gigs you can't fight the crowd. If you turn up they will just yell instead of talk. If you bring an amp loud enough to play over the crowd you'll get fired. You can turn up mids to try to cut through but at a certain point you just have to accept the situation or don't take the gig.

Truth.

 

[Michael Drost]

Almost all of my jazz gigs are duos in this setting, in a roughly 40 seat restaurant. Small enough that just 1 table’s conversations can drive the whole room’s volume. When it’s too loud for us, we shrug shoulders and try to keep it going w/out competing. Usually that’s the first set, and the crowd thins for the second set. If heads are bobbing and toes are tapping even in loud situations, or if ppl come up to us to ask for tunes or compliment, then it’s a good sign we’re meeting the moment.

Sometimes, not every time, when we sprinkle in recognizable pop or rock tunes, even at our same volume, that changes the vibe toward a little more crowd listening/attention, which we definitely have fun with when it happens, and often generates more tips.

Next 2 gigs will have a lot of holiday standards, should be interesting to see how that affects things in this thread’s context.

Agree! It’s nice when the herd thins a bit and attention is drawn back to the music.

 

[Michael Drost]

My instinct is to dig in, but in truth the only real answer is either to turn up and compete with the room - which just usually makes the room louder and incurs the wrath of the club owner - or to just accept that it’s a background gig and go with that. I find that

Agreed. Going with the flow is part of the gig. I appreciate your input!

 

[Steven Ayres]

Another factor to consider is that the band can be the instigator of crowd noise, aggravating the situation. Many (imho, most) combos just play too loud for the room, and it mightn't hurt to try backing off on the volume to see whether it helps.

 

[Michael Drost]

Another factor to consider is that the band can be the instigator of crowd noise, aggravating the situation. Many (imho, most) combos just play too loud for the room, and it mightn't hurt to try backing off on the volume to see whether it helps.

Steven, great advice.

 

[Ric Vice]

My experience with “ ambient crow chatter” is that it’s a futile endeavor to try and compete with them. as many have said above “it’s a lost cause because 40 people in a crowded room can overpower a small group. So, I put the amp on a riser, usually my trusty Ampwedge and live with what wise man and wonderful jazz pianist once said “live within the expectations of the gig” otherwise you’ll be miserable all night long. I have the very kind of gig you’re describing coming up on the 20th of December with a truly amateur pianist in a room where people dressed to the nines in formal wear wil be right on top of us barking away. Fortunately there’s free valet parking, it’s only for an hour and 15 minutes, the drummer is a saint, and it pays well. So, keep smiling