How do you deal with this? (Subwoofers)

[Eric_Allard]

WARNING: Long post ahead.

This has happened to me a few times lately and I would love any input on how to better deal with it in the future.

Played a gig last night. The venue was a really small room with a really small stage. Like most venues these days, they had a few large subs. These subs are at the end of the stage... MY end of the stage.

I like to run my stage sound as quietly as possible... just enough to keep up with the drums. That usually winds up being about 9 o'clock on the input volume and master on my GK 700RB-II into my home made 212 cabinet with Eminence Delta Pro 12's.

Problem is I am standing three feet away from this ridiculous stack of subs and it's completely drowning out my stage sound. All I hear is how my bass sounds coming out of these subs, which is terrible. To make things worse, the monitors and mains are all flown from the ceiling, which is very welcome on such a small stage, but they're suspended by chains that rattle like mad every time I hit a note (think snare wire buzz X 100).

I tell the sound man about this and explain that I like my bass to be quite a bit more mid-rangy and for it to sit above the kick drum. I ask if he can high-pass the bass so it doesn't come out of the subs so much. Specifically, I ask him to try a 12 db/octave HPF starting at about 100-120 Hz. He appears to understand, but instead of cutting some bass to the subs, he chooses to crank the mids and treble to the bass, which just makes things worse for my band mate's monitor mixes.

At this point, we're running out of time to soundcheck and, frustrated, I just powered through our set not hearing myself well. I'm told it sounded great out in the front of house, but having my ears assaulted by these subs for the duration of our set and not hearing myself well was a frustrating experience. Even with the 15 db buttons in my musicians earplugs, my ears felt very fatigued at the end of the night.

How do you guys deal with this type of situation? It's becoming far too common these days. I just don't know why every venue thinks they need a massive stack of subs. I feel I would have had a far better time just running my own live sounds and just miking the vocals.

Clarification: I'm not bashing the sound guys, just asking how to communicate my problems with them effectively so I can play my best.

 

[Downunderwonder]

I think your idea of a small venue must be very different to mine. In a small venue I carry the room with my amp.

 

[GK Growl]

The venue was a really small room with a really small stage.

Define small. In my world, my bandmates seem to LOVE sub bass. We are a rock/pop cover band and at times I feel like they would love the bass to sound like a hip hop show. I hate it and fortunately they have become more accepting of the fact that this usually creates a very muddy sound.

 

[Eric_Allard]

By small, I'm talking probably about 1400 square feet. Small enough that my amp could have carried it without breaking a sweat.
In my opinion, a room that small doesn't need a stack of 18" subs... Especially when they are within arms reach of me.

 

[GK Growl]

By small, I'm talking probably about 1400 square feet. Small enough that my amp could have carried it without breaking a sweat.
In my opinion, a room that small doesn't need a stack of 18" subs... Especially when they are within arms reach of me.

Totally agree. My amp can carry most rooms we play but my band insists that we run bass through the subs most of the time. I swear that when most people think of bass nowadays all they think of is sub bass/hip hop/club sounds. It's sickening.

 

[Eric_Allard]

Looking at Yorkville's website, I think this is what the subs were: Invalid Link Removed

 

[jimfist]

Tough love time: if you're going to work a lot over the course of years, you'll run into this repeatedly, even at some pretty well-equipped rooms with good sound tech staff. So, this is a "life's tough, get a glove" type thing. You simply have to do your best to adjust, put on a happy face, and not let it negatively impact your performance in the eyes of the audience. Never let them see you sweat!

If you're using a stage amp, you'll wind up creating a tone that has a lot of mid/high end presence and no low end, and sounds like crap in isolation, but works for the stage mix. Relying on the house monitor system for your bass tone on stage is a really dicey move IMHO, and the best excuse for you to have some sort of full-range (or other) stage rig that YOU can control, first and foremost, so that the house monitoring can be used sparingly as needed for the rest of the band.

In the end, it seems that the sound at FOH was fine, according to the audience members. Keep that thought with you, since in the end, a happy audience is the ultimate goal.

For a personal perspective, I've played at a number of clubs with multiple subwoofers located UNDER the stage, and the stages were generally not professionally designed to mitigate the radiation of the subwoofer frequencies. On a few occasions, the low end vibrating was so intense that it literally made the bottom of my feet ITCH! Mid and hi frequencies can be suppressed with ear plugs, but the lower frequencies just go THROUGH things unless they are completely, physically isolated from them.

So, in the end, do your best, and know your parts cold, and try not to get too distracted when the sound isn't great on stage.

The only other remedy I can think of is to REQUIRE by contract that you have your own personal, traveling FOH mixer work your shows. Even then, this may not help if the sound system and stage acoustics are poor, and not professionally mitigated. Most clubs don't consider this and don't want to spend the money on it. The ones that do are like gold, so cherish those gigs when you get them.

 

[Gearhead17]

Been there too many times. What I do is reduce everything on my stage rig below 150hz, use the low end I hear from the subs mixed in with the mids and highs from my rig. That is about the only way I can actually hear anything I am playing. I would PM Azure Skies on this forum and ask about his high pass and low pass filters. You can basically send a a signal to the sound man with less low end. Some sounds guys will actually take your suggestion of less booming low end in a mix, but many will ignore it. What you have to realize is that subs blasting away on stage could sound perfectly good 20' out in the room. Cubby Bear Chicago - same issue with subs. They blast louder than loud, but the room is terrible acoustically with low end. It sounds great more 15' way from the subs, not overpowering at all. But on stage, every one of my notes shakes the stage and I barely hear my stage rig. I am mostly hearing the subs. I have tested this through numerous gigs there while also seeing friend's bands there.

 

[Eric_Allard]

Relying on the house monitor system for your bass tone on stage is a really dicey move IMHO, and the best excuse for you to have some sort of full-range (or other) stage rig that YOU can control, first and foremost, so that the house monitoring can be used sparingly as needed for the rest of the band.

I wasn't relying on the monitors for my stage sound. My problem was that my due to my proximity to the subs, they drowned out my amp, the vocal monitors, and much of the drums. I was able to make out just enough to play along.
In this band, we have semi improvised breaks in songs where I need to hear myself and the rest of the band clearly to do my part. I can't do that if all I hear is booming from the subs.

 

[Eric_Allard]

Been there too many times. What I do is reduce everything on my stage rig below 150hz, use the low end I hear from the subs mixed in with the mids and highs from my rig. That is about the only way I can actually hear anything I am playing. I would PM Azure Skies on this forum and ask about his high pass and low pass filters. You can basically send a a signal to the sound man with less low end. Some sounds guys will actually take your suggestion of less booming low end in a mix, but many will ignore it. What you have to realize is that subs blasting away on stage could sound perfectly good 20' out in the room. Cubby Bear Chicago - same issue with subs. They blast louder than loud, but the room is terrible acoustically with low end. It sounds great more 15' way from the subs, not overpowering at all. But on stage, every one of my notes shakes the stage and I barely hear my stage rig. I am mostly hearing the subs. I have tested this through numerous gigs there while also seeing friend's bands there.

I was using a VT Bass DI with the "bite" switch engaged, which rolls off much of the low end. Would there be any benefit to be had from further high pass filtering?

 

[Chris 'Wighat' Jordan]

Simplest solution in a room that small is not to be in the FOH. Next best would be to have total control over what you do send.

 

[Eric_Allard]

Next time we play there I'll ask if we can move the subs elsewhere. After all, they are powered. All one would need is an extra XLR cable. That and insisting on gentle high passing of the bass guitar.
It's hard to ask there venue not to use them. The bar staff were very proud and excited about their new system... It just made it difficult for ME to hear myself.
Keeping the stage sound at a reasonable level is non negotiable for me. I may play in rock bands, but I don't want to go deaf doing it. My ears are still feeling rough today and I was wearing my custom molded ear plugs the whole night.

 

[Gearhead17]

I was using a VT Bass DI with the "bite" switch engaged, which rolls off much of the low end. Would there be any benefit to be had from further high pass filtering?

Yes, there is increased benefit from reducing the low end even further from your rig and hearing the monitors in front of you. Al of the lows below 150hz basically radiate in a circular pattern and surround you. Reducing it further on your rig will allow you to hear other sources of sound much better than before. Is it full-proof? No. Every room is a different beast and there is only so much you can do.

Are there actual drums on stage or is this purely electronic drums? I suggest setting up closer to the drummer and following the tips I discussed previously. That might help you more.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

WARNING: Long post ahead.

This has happened to me a few times lately and I would love any input on how to better deal with it in the future.

Played a gig last night. The venue was a really small room with a really small stage. Like most venues these days, they had a few large subs. These subs are at the end of the stage... MY end of the stage.

I like to run my stage sound as quietly as possible... just enough to keep up with the drums. That usually winds up being about 9 o'clock on the input volume and master on my GK 700RB-II into my home made 212 cabinet with Eminence Delta Pro 12's.

Problem is I am standing three feet away from this ridiculous stack of subs and it's completely drowning out my stage sound. All I hear is how my bass sounds coming out of these subs, which is terrible. To make things worse, the monitors and mains are all flown from the ceiling, which is very welcome on such a small stage, but they're suspended by chains that rattle like mad every time I hit a note (think snare wire buzz X 100).

I tell the sound man about this and explain that I like my bass to be quite a bit more mid-rangy and for it to sit above the kick drum. I ask if he can high-pass the bass so it doesn't come out of the subs so much. Specifically, I ask him to try a 12 db/octave HPF starting at about 100-120 Hz. He appears to understand, but instead of cutting some bass to the subs, he chooses to crank the mids and treble to the bass, which just makes things worse for my band mate's monitor mixes.

At this point, we're running out of time to soundcheck and, frustrated, I just powered through our set not hearing myself well. I'm told it sounded great out in the front of house, but having my ears assaulted by these subs for the duration of our set and not hearing myself well was a frustrating experience. Even with the 15 db buttons in my musicians earplugs, my ears felt very fatigued at the end of the night.

How do you guys deal with this type of situation? It's becoming far too common these days. I just don't know why every venue thinks they need a massive stack of subs. I feel I would have had a far better time just running my own live sounds and just miking the vocals.

Clarification: I'm not bashing the sound guys, just asking how to communicate my problems with them effectively so I can play my best.

Small venue it seems, based on subsequent posts.
Apparently, we have yet another sound guy who would better serve humanity delivering pizza.
"Look man. I got all this rightous gear." "Seems a waste to not use it." "What's your problem anyway?"

So pull the plug on your DI feed to the PA and see if he even notices.
When he doesn't and your band mates do, maybe that will be the time when pizza guy pays attention.

I don't think this is about bashing sound guys. There are a lot of good ones out there. This is about bashing THIS "sound guy." I am not a sound guy, nor do I aspire to be one. However, on those rare occasions when I am pressed into to service in that capacity, and someone has requests, or suggestions, I at least try to consider the needs of those being served by my meager efforts.

A good sound person needs to be able to hear well, but also listen well. 15 Hz to 15 kHz is only half the job.

 

[Mugre]

I like subs. As a sound guy, I can get impact without excessive overall SPL. The smart way to run subs, is off an Aux. buss. Then you have overall control at the desk of the sub-level AND you can easily dial back the amount of any instrument channel in the subs.

Short answer: if the place is big enough that the bass guitar needs to run through the mains, subs in the SR system are a good idea. If they're poorly run or the sound guy is a bass maniac, you're at his mercy. Keep in mind though that your crap sound on stage may sound boom-tastic in the audience.

This is not a new problem. Controlling sub boom on the stage has been on many large concert engineers minds for a while now. For a look at one solution, take a look at an article on cardioid sub stacking. I think Dave Rat was a pioneer in this. After you have the low frequency content covered for the front of the house, a separate stack of subs are placed behind and out of phase to the subs that face the audience. By adjusting delay, you can shape a phase cancel lobe across the stage. It's been a long time since I read about this but I think they get something like 10-15 db cut. It's equipment and processing intensive. For now it's a big boys toy. You're not going to see it at the local douche palace.

Mugre

 

[CatSquare]

How about a dedicated HPF just for your DI send to the sound guy? If you can't avoid the club's subs, at least this way you can chisel those frequencies out of his mix and control the bass with your rig.

 

[lz4005]

Asking a sound guy in a small bar to high pass things or move subs isn't going to happen.

You have two realistic options, as others have said.
1- Cut as much low end out of your amp tone as needed to hear yourself clearly.
2- Don't go through the PA.

 

[s0c9]

or.. you could go IEM and not have the problem at all?

 

[sawzalot]

So, don't blame the sound guy too much. He's just making it sound good out front. Too much bass onstage from the subs is a CLASSIC problem, even (maybe especially) for the biggest acts. What this club needs to do is set up subs in a cardioid array to reduce the bass frequencies onstage. Otherwise the performers get pummeled and all that bass is getting into the mics onstage, muddying the mix.

My recommendation would be to go with IEMs. Even a cheap set of shure SE 215 earbuds gives pretty good sound isolation and will help tremendously. I've been in rooms like that and what I hear is my IEM mix very clearly while *feeling* the low end from the subs, which I like.

Tom

 

[gumtown]

Mic your bass amp instead of D.I. which will force the sound guy to high pass to avoid rumble feedback from the subs.
That will also give you more control on the tone sent to the desk.

At the end of the day, you have to have faith that the sound guy is making the whole mix sound good, the sound the band gets on stage is secondary.