How do you deal with this? (Subwoofers)

[10cc]

Yeah I'd just buy a HPF and be done with situations like this.

 

[Eric_Allard]

Thank you all for all the useful suggestions.

The thought of IEMs is not at all appealing to me... I can't help but dread the though of having the guitarist's solo directed straight at my eardrums... not to mention the drummer's snare when he gets excited. Is it safe to assume IEM systems have some hard limiting built into them? I've never really looked into them.

Carrying around a dedicated HPF for the FOH feed is a good idea.

Staying out of FOH for small rooms is probably my best bet.

I guess my main conclusion is that if a venue is small enough that the only location for the subs is within arms reach (literally) of the performers, the venue is likely too small to accommodate said subs.

 

[s0c9]

The thought of IEMs is not at all appealing to me... I can't help but dread the though of having the guitarist's solo directed straight at my eardrums... not to mention the drummer's snare when he gets excited. Is it safe to assume IEM systems have some hard limiting built into them? I've never really looked into them.

YES, most (if not all) WIRELESS IEM systems come with built-in limiters... some work better than others.. with the more expensive models having adjustable limiters.. Entry level systems have fixed limiter settings, so with units like the PSM200 (replaced with the PSM300) you can get the limiter "pumping" f the input levels were too high.
If you run a WIRED IEM' system, you will need put some limiting in line as most headphone amps don't really have that feature.

My band runs all IEM. Most of our gigs - regardless of size - have provided PA/SR. We have an X32 console with a splitter snake, and use our own mics/DI's, etc.
We ALWAYS get the same mix in our IEM's no matter where we play. We send the house an L/R feed, or individual channels depending on their setup.
We never have to worry about what FOH is feeding subs, tops or anything else in that situation.
When WE provide the PA (rarely, but we do have one), it's the same. Console L/R outs going to the powered tops/sub, with "our guy" mixing us out front via iPad.

If you gig once a month or less each year.. the expense is probably not worth it. But, we are busy -- for example, I have 7 gigs between now and Dec 3rd, NYE and 21 already on the books for 1st half of 2017 -- so the expense of digital console, wireless IEM's (Senn G3) and custom buds (1964 and UE) coupled with the ability to "power up and go" was worth the expense.
Once it is all setup.. it's INCREDIBLY nice to get a customized IEM mix in your ears, and not have to worry about boomy bass and FOH !!

 

[jimfist]

strap one of these to the bottoms of each of your boots:

IsoAcoustics ISO-L8R200 Sub - Large, Single Unit

 

[bucephylus]

WARNING: Long post ahead.

This has happened to me a few times lately and I would love any input on how to better deal with it in the future.

Played a gig last night. The venue was a really small room with a really small stage. Like most venues these days, they had a few large subs. These subs are at the end of the stage... MY end of the stage.

I like to run my stage sound as quietly as possible... just enough to keep up with the drums. That usually winds up being about 9 o'clock on the input volume and master on my GK 700RB-II into my home made 212 cabinet with Eminence Delta Pro 12's.

Problem is I am standing three feet away from this ridiculous stack of subs and it's completely drowning out my stage sound. All I hear is how my bass sounds coming out of these subs, which is terrible. To make things worse, the monitors and mains are all flown from the ceiling, which is very welcome on such a small stage, but they're suspended by chains that rattle like mad every time I hit a note (think snare wire buzz X 100).

I tell the sound man about this and explain that I like my bass to be quite a bit more mid-rangy and for it to sit above the kick drum. I ask if he can high-pass the bass so it doesn't come out of the subs so much. Specifically, I ask him to try a 12 db/octave HPF starting at about 100-120 Hz. He appears to understand, but instead of cutting some bass to the subs, he chooses to crank the mids and treble to the bass, which just makes things worse for my band mate's monitor mixes.

At this point, we're running out of time to soundcheck and, frustrated, I just powered through our set not hearing myself well. I'm told it sounded great out in the front of house, but having my ears assaulted by these subs for the duration of our set and not hearing myself well was a frustrating experience. Even with the 15 db buttons in my musicians earplugs, my ears felt very fatigued at the end of the night.

How do you guys deal with this type of situation? It's becoming far too common these days. I just don't know why every venue thinks they need a massive stack of subs. I feel I would have had a far better time just running my own live sounds and just miking the vocals.

Clarification: I'm not bashing the sound guys, just asking how to communicate my problems with them effectively so I can play my best.

First, your request to the sound guy was the technically appropriate message. Failing proper response to that, the next step is to have an amp capable of carrying the house and pull the DI feed. That's pretty much it. However, if the band is IEM, then you are stuck. Maybe get new IEM's with better external isolation?

A performance is a team effort. The sound person is an essential part of that team. But, in our gigging, it is not unusual to run into people running sound who literally have extreme and highly inaccurate predispositions towards how a mix should be constructed. How the bass sounds is just a small part of that. I'm continually amazed by the dichotomy between how hard many musicians work to get their parts to be very accurate to the studio recording vs how mixes are many times just constructed based on inexperienced, non studied, and biased approaches; perhaps, as in this case, how an auto sub woofer system works and sounds.

I tend to refer to the juke box for how the mix should sound. But, if the sound person drives around in a car with 400 W subwoofers, then that will be the mix that serves as reference. The glaring error that I've been involved in for many classic rock bands is the sound person who thinks the kick drum needs to dominate the drum mix; and then the band is trying to figure out why no one is dancing. LOL.

Protect your ears, smile when on stage, and continue to look for gigs with knowledgeable and nice folks. Including the sound people.

 

[LowActionHero]

WARNING: Long post ahead.

This has happened to me a few times lately and I would love any input on how to better deal with it in the future.

Played a gig last night. The venue was a really small room with a really small stage. Like most venues these days, they had a few large subs. These subs are at the end of the stage... MY end of the stage.

I like to run my stage sound as quietly as possible... just enough to keep up with the drums. That usually winds up being about 9 o'clock on the input volume and master on my GK 700RB-II into my home made 212 cabinet with Eminence Delta Pro 12's.

Problem is I am standing three feet away from this ridiculous stack of subs and it's completely drowning out my stage sound. All I hear is how my bass sounds coming out of these subs, which is terrible. To make things worse, the monitors and mains are all flown from the ceiling, which is very welcome on such a small stage, but they're suspended by chains that rattle like mad every time I hit a note (think snare wire buzz X 100).

I tell the sound man about this and explain that I like my bass to be quite a bit more mid-rangy and for it to sit above the kick drum. I ask if he can high-pass the bass so it doesn't come out of the subs so much. Specifically, I ask him to try a 12 db/octave HPF starting at about 100-120 Hz. He appears to understand, but instead of cutting some bass to the subs, he chooses to crank the mids and treble to the bass, which just makes things worse for my band mate's monitor mixes.

At this point, we're running out of time to soundcheck and, frustrated, I just powered through our set not hearing myself well. I'm told it sounded great out in the front of house, but having my ears assaulted by these subs for the duration of our set and not hearing myself well was a frustrating experience. Even with the 15 db buttons in my musicians earplugs, my ears felt very fatigued at the end of the night.

How do you guys deal with this type of situation? It's becoming far too common these days. I just don't know why every venue thinks they need a massive stack of subs. I feel I would have had a far better time just running my own live sounds and just miking the vocals.

Clarification: I'm not bashing the sound guys, just asking how to communicate my problems with them effectively so I can play my best.

Does that club have a Karaoke night or DJ? That seems to be a common thing around here.
Edit- meaning the PA is set up for overly bass heavy Karaoke or DJing that doesn't seem compatible with a live band. 'a little boom is good so more boom must be better' I dunno...

 

[guy n. cognito]

How about a dedicated HPF just for your DI send to the sound guy? If you can't avoid the club's subs, at least this way you can chisel those frequencies out of his mix and control the bass with your rig.

This. It's the easiest solution.

 

[Eric_Allard]

Does that club have a Karaoke night or DJ? That seems to be a common thing around here.

I have no idea as it was my first time there. Makes sense as the sub setup seemed more than up to the task of hosting EDM nights.

 

[ShadowImage]

I agree with the HPF, but a better solution may be a rack multiband EQ or pedal for your board if you use one. That way you can tweak your frequencies to whatever range the house requires. I got one because I often use backlines and don't know what kind of rig I'll be getting for the night.

 

[Aidenn7]

well if he wants lowend give it to him.. Meat Box and a blue box on a low B- lol

 

[Freight Train]

WARNING: Long post ahead.

This has happened to me a few times lately and I would love any input on how to better deal with it in the future.

Played a gig last night. The venue was a really small room with a really small stage. Like most venues these days, they had a few large subs. These subs are at the end of the stage... MY end of the stage.

I like to run my stage sound as quietly as possible... just enough to keep up with the drums. That usually winds up being about 9 o'clock on the input volume and master on my GK 700RB-II into my home made 212 cabinet with Eminence Delta Pro 12's.

Problem is I am standing three feet away from this ridiculous stack of subs and it's completely drowning out my stage sound. All I hear is how my bass sounds coming out of these subs, which is terrible. To make things worse, the monitors and mains are all flown from the ceiling, which is very welcome on such a small stage, but they're suspended by chains that rattle like mad every time I hit a note (think snare wire buzz X 100).

I tell the sound man about this and explain that I like my bass to be quite a bit more mid-rangy and for it to sit above the kick drum. I ask if he can high-pass the bass so it doesn't come out of the subs so much. Specifically, I ask him to try a 12 db/octave HPF starting at about 100-120 Hz. He appears to understand, but instead of cutting some bass to the subs, he chooses to crank the mids and treble to the bass, which just makes things worse for my band mate's monitor mixes.

At this point, we're running out of time to soundcheck and, frustrated, I just powered through our set not hearing myself well. I'm told it sounded great out in the front of house, but having my ears assaulted by these subs for the duration of our set and not hearing myself well was a frustrating experience. Even with the 15 db buttons in my musicians earplugs, my ears felt very fatigued at the end of the night.

How do you guys deal with this type of situation? It's becoming far too common these days. I just don't know why every venue thinks they need a massive stack of subs. I feel I would have had a far better time just running my own live sounds and just miking the vocals.

Clarification: I'm not bashing the sound guys, just asking how to communicate my problems with them effectively so I can play my best.

Why not blame the sound guys? The problem you're describing is epidemic, and it points right to them. We have a whole new generation of FOH "engineers" that have absolutely no idea what the proper tonal balance of music should be. 90% of them seem to think that everything from folk to blues to country to gospel to rock should have the same curve as stinking dub step. It's sad, and it's getting worse. Small example, we have an absolutely beautiful theater here in Dallas that should be, and used to be, a primo venue. But because of the FOH engineer shows there are absolutely unlistenable, and unintelligible. The heyday of FOH engineers from my experience started in the early 70's when most of the guys mixing live sound were recording engineers who were doing live sound to make extra bucks. That was in the day when recording engineers were truly engineers, and worked in real rooms with real monitors and therefore for the most part had trained ears. I would love to have heard what engineers of that quality could have done if they had the speaker technology of today to work with. Nowadays probably a greater percentage of FOH guys consider themselves recording engineers as well, which means they have a ProStool rig in a closet at home, but that does not an engineer, or a trained ear, make. A qualified engineer on a terrible system can usually pull a diamond out of goat's butt and get you a very acceptable sound. You can put someone who has no musical ear or knowledge on the best sound system in the world and it will sound like 2 cents a pound.

 

[darwin-bass]

HPF is the wrong approach. You are not the sound tech and trying to manipulate the FOH to suit your stage needs is a poor choice. Get as far away from the subs as you can. Cut the lows from your amp. Isolating IEM is a good choice. Use prescription ear plugs that keep a natural balance. The cheap foam earpligs will make it worse. Basically find ways to deal with it without messing up the FOH.

 

[Eric_Allard]

HPF is the wrong approach. You are not the sound tech and trying to manipulate the FOH to suit your stage needs is a poor choice. Get as far away from the subs as you can. Cut the lows from your amp. Isolating IEM is a good choice. Use prescription ear plugs that keep a natural balance. The cheap foam earpligs will make it worse. Basically find ways to deal with it without messing up the FOH.

Upon further reflection, you're probably right: Even with a HPF, the sound guy would likely just boost the low end to compensate, making things sound even more unnatural.
I was wearing a pair of custom moulded musician's ear plugs, but they weren't enough to protect me from the barrage of bass from my proximity to the subs.
I think the well-meaning, but ill informed, sound techs are under the impression that bassists and the general public wants booming bass. Personally, I despise this; both as a bassist and spectator. My first Rush concert (Clockwork Angels Tour), for example, was ruined by overzealous subwoofer use. Everytime Neil laid into his kick drums, everything else was drowned out by the booming. I have been listening to Rush for a long time, but couldn't recognize several of the songs until about half way through.
In hindsight, I think what frustrated me worse about this guy is that before we set up, he went on a rant about how most musicians use too much stage sound, making HIS job difficult.... then he goes on to completely drown out my stage sound.
I'll stop here as I don't want this to devolve into a sound guy bashing thread... They all mean well, but I think many don't understand what we require to perform our best.

 

[s0c9]

I'll stop here as I don't want this to devolve into a sound guy bashing thread... They all mean well, but I think many don't understand what we require to perform our best.

This IS a 2-way street and most I know.. do mean well. Stage sound often has no resemblance to what the audience hears. If you are gigging regularly you are going to run into this quite a lot. To be sure there are jaded house guys who spin up a basic mix, then walk away while you play.
Most I know are there to make you - the band - sound the best they can. That's their job.. but that does not always translate to pristine audio on stage.
You need to go to IEM's and control your own mix (as I suggested above) or work with the sound guy at each venue. They - given the room - may not have too many options open.
Having done both - for many years - I can assure you.. I know far more musicians who think they are SR experts than FOH folks who think they are musicians.

 

[ShadowImage]

Stage sound often has no resemblance to what the audience hears. If you are gigging regularly you are going to run into this quite a lot. To be sure there are jaded house guys who spin up a basic mix, then walk away while you play.
Most I know are there to make you - the band - sound the best they can. That's their job.. but that does not always translate to pristine audio on stage.

I agree with s0c9.
This is very true but in my experience most sound guys are just trying to do "good enough" to get the show on the road. Then again, I mostly play small venues, so maybe it's different once you're playing actual concert halls and more well known.

Since any stage will be different and any tech will be different, the best thing you can do is put as much power into your own hands as possible. That means having your own eq or HPF on your output and an IEM. Honestly a good IEM is worth the investment because you can use it at any level of playing. Be friendly and proffessional with the soundguy but don't leave too much in his hands. So many are late, drunk, bad mood, don't care, or only there for the headliner.

 

[Omega Monkey]

I don't think you can necessarily blame sound guys. What bands tend to not realize is that running sound is a balancing act. You have to take into account the band, the gear, the room, and the audience. Then you have to balance stage sound and house sound. Meanwhile, more often than not as a sound guy I run into guitarists and drummers who just play too damn loud no matter how you try to get them to come down a bit.

So you have to cooperate, and you have to communicate. If the guy says "hey, could you turn your low mids down a bit, it's really boomy out here", just do it and assume the guy has the band's best interests at heart. And if you need more or less of something, ask him. Maybe I'm just so great that I usually get it right before showtime, but I usually have to ASK the band at set breaks if they need anything in the monitors. And I try to make any suggestions at that time (usually, could you turn the guitar down a bit and/or bring down your upper mids?).

In terms of subs though, firstly, that doesn't sound like too much gear for that size room. But yeah, boominess is usually your low mids or lows, or just plain too much of the bass channel hitting the subs, or possibly the system not really dialed in with EQ for the room. It is definitely a problem that so many sound guys make the mix 50% kick and bass, leaving not much room for everything else. Depending on the system, I do like the kick to have a decent amount of thump to it as long as I can make that blend with the band.

Anyway, TL,DR you have to communicate and cooperate with the sound guy.

 

[DWBass]

Sounds like they have the subs cranked which is stupid for an indoor venue. Have to know how to balance the system.

 

[musicman7722]

I have had that happen a few times too. I use IEM but the lows from the subs just wash into my zone and even penetrate the buds. Just had to suck it up. Next time I will play elsewhere onstage

 

[jimfist]

I know this has been mentioned, but with respect to the amount of subwoofer-generated low end in the audience listening area: the FOH mixer may in fact have a very good mix going, and it's just the OTHER properties of the room and stage that are creating a massive build-up of low end on stage. If that is in fact the case, then the club should try to get this rectified, and if moving the subs doesn't solve the problem, then they should seek a professional solution.

My guess is that most clubs don't see the value of spending this money on a professional and complete solution, so they'll punt. The good thing about subwoofers, though, is that you can relocate them without necessarily killing their output to the listening area across the entire room. I've gigged at a club a few times that has a mixing booth located in a weird spot, at the far left side of the room, only about 30 feet from the stage, and in addition, has the subs for the FOH system located UNDERNEATH the sound booth. Crazy dilemma for the FOH mixer, but it actually doesn't sound awful in the room, and there's plenty of low end. I'd bet a solution like this would cure the problem. LOL.

For the OP, then, if you can get the indulgence of the club, see if alt locations for the subs can be made to work. I wouldn't bet that you'll get their indulgence, but it's worth a shot. Stacking a pair of subs, one atop the other is a great way to avoid frequency canceling/combing nodes, and minimizes footprint.

Finally, does this venue feature any "next level" talent - IOW, bigger names that have some clout WRT all sound reinforcement issues at the venues where they perform? I've owned and operate a number of house systems, and when the bigger names hit these venues, you pretty much did as they said, which included physically moving some substantially sized PA stacks, simply for better line-of-sight. Reason I bring this up is because it has a lot of value engaging the sound techs and musicians in these acts to see how they deal with and/or approach stages where the sub freqs are overbearing. It's worth hearing what they have to say.

 

[fokof]

In 99,5% of the time , what you hear on stage is totally different from what you hear in front.
If you EQ or HPF the heck out of your signal based on what you hear on stage , you'll probably en up sounding like thin garbage in front.

What's more important to you ?
Your own well being or satisfying the paying customer with are there to hear a good show ?

Even some professional level show rooms and theater can't have the sub level out for sound on stage.
Not all place have the space or the setup or the budget to do a good cardio sub array.
That's the sad reality of low end : it is omnidirectional meaning ; the lower the frequencies , the more you'll hear it on stage.

Like other suggested : send a flat pre EQ to the front and let the man do his/her job and remove the low end content of your bass monitor.

And it will help you a lot if you have your own soundman , that way , you can fire them if they don't do a satisfying job for your taste