You already give a ton of info around here but 100 words or less how can the average non-techie buyer beware? What are the key meaningful numbers and things that need to be understood and how they relate in an amplification system? What can be misleading? Just looking for a shove in the right direction not a masterclass. I know understanding motorcycle power specs takes a fair bit of self education about various measurements, how they are taken (ie. the dif between hp and bhp and at what rpm), why things like torque and horsepower measurements aren't always meaningful on their own and need to be understood as parts of a system etc. Thanks.
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How do you determine how much power is enough?
- Thread starter nightchef
- Start date
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,062
- 5
- 221,097
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
It’s the same in all industries, when the numbers are “too good to be true”, or better than the best in the industry, then it’s suspect until proven otherwise.
I had a GK400 back then. It was a workhorse but I remember it cutting out at some shows, going silent for a bit and then coming back on. I was definitely pushing it to it’s limits!
In addition to what AgedHorse said, there are also some manufacturers who are known to use "their own unique and/or mysterious system" when quoting specs.
For example, Behringer. They sell a "2000W" Bugera Veyron amp that retails for less than most 700W bass amps... a "so good it's suspect" red flag.
Real world testing puts that amp at more like 600-700W @ 4Ohms. And it's actually a pretty good amp in terms of features and clean sound - I have one! It's a shame Behringer won't give us its specs to a standard that makes it directly comparable with the way other reputable manufacturers rate their amps.
My amps run between 600-900W (600W, 700W, 750W, 900W). Not sure what I need, but that is what I run and it is more than enough. I don’t need more and could likely get by with less I suppose. These are the best sounding amps I’ve ever played and bone simple to use, which is why I choose to play them.
My amp tech in the Hudson Valley back in the day gave up on my 400RB stating the heat changes them over a decade or so...it would work but no longer had a discernable EQ. I can't remember which friend I gave it to. Was a great amp until all of a sudden it wasn't.
Thanks everybody, great responses.
What prompted the question was that I recently picked up a 175-watt*, 1x10 combo as a compact grab & go alternative to my 800-watt, 2x10 rig, and I’m realizing that I have no clear idea as to how to draw the line between a gig where I need the latter and one where the former is enough.
*The head is 350 watts into 4 ohms, so with just the 8-ohm combo cab, it’s a 175-watt rig.
My gig situations tend to run on the low-SPL side of things; I don’t find myself on large stages with loud bands very much. So I’ve never need to push the 800/2x10 rig anywhere near its maximum. I’ve probably had the master volume as high as 1 or 2 o’clock once or twice. Usually it’s at noon or below. This leads me to suspect that the 350-watt rig would be enough for many of my gigs. But I’m looking for ways to understand how to answer that question more definitely/repeatably.
What prompted the question was that I recently picked up a 175-watt*, 1x10 combo as a compact grab & go alternative to my 800-watt, 2x10 rig, and I’m realizing that I have no clear idea as to how to draw the line between a gig where I need the latter and one where the former is enough.
*The head is 350 watts into 4 ohms, so with just the 8-ohm combo cab, it’s a 175-watt rig.
My gig situations tend to run on the low-SPL side of things; I don’t find myself on large stages with loud bands very much. So I’ve never need to push the 800/2x10 rig anywhere near its maximum. I’ve probably had the master volume as high as 1 or 2 o’clock once or twice. Usually it’s at noon or below. This leads me to suspect that the 350-watt rig would be enough for many of my gigs. But I’m looking for ways to understand how to answer that question more definitely/repeatably.
If it's possible to track down the specs for your gear, the formulas I provided should be very useful.
The combo is 175W into a single 10. Since the power doubles to 350W with an extension, if the cab matches, you get approximately +6dB, which is a significant increase. The matching cab increase the sensitivity by about +3dB and doubling power gives you a second +3dB.
My guess is your 800W with 210 is really 400W, unless you add an extension. If this is accurate, the power differential between the combo with a matching extension cab and the bigger amp with the 210 is [Log(400/350) x10] = ~0.5dB.
However this does not necessarily mean the 210 rig would be louder than the combo with a matching extension cab.
Let's assume the 210 has sensitivity rating of 97dB 1W/1m, and the combo and 110 each have a sensitivity rating of 95dB 1W/1m. This means the combined sensitivity of both 110s is about 98dB.
210 at 400W = [Log(400) x 10] + 97 = ~123dB
110 combo + 110 at 350W = [Log(350) x 10] + 98 = ~123.4dB
This is just an example since I don't think you have a matching cab for you combo. But hopefully you see how the math can help you understand how your different gear options compare. Also, keep in mind you need the actual specs for your gear...these are just figures I made up.
Most people would probably just try their gear and use their ears to gauge how the different combinations compare. It's still a good idea to check the specs. If your amp truly does make 800W into the 210, you need to make sure and respect the 210's RMS power rating...which I doubt is anywhere near 800W.
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Honestly, you have a kick*** compact, lightweight rig with the D800+/RS210. That’s about as grab and go as it gets for me. I wouldn’t sacrifice quality and tone for portability given what you already have.
It's not just about power, either.
Comparing the Mesa Prodigy to the Mesa Bass 400+, we're looking at just 50 watts differential into 4 ohms.
The 400+ is so much BALLSIER tho. I think those giant iron transformers really make a difference.
I've been playing the 400+ all day and it's WHOMP! right between the eyes.
Tonight I'll have the Prodigy which has definite cojones of its own, but the two amps are really night and day.
Watts is never the whole story.
Comparing the Mesa Prodigy to the Mesa Bass 400+, we're looking at just 50 watts differential into 4 ohms.
The 400+ is so much BALLSIER tho. I think those giant iron transformers really make a difference.
I've been playing the 400+ all day and it's WHOMP! right between the eyes.
Tonight I'll have the Prodigy which has definite cojones of its own, but the two amps are really night and day.
Watts is never the whole story.
It’s the single 10 that would be making me nervous
Without a doubt. I sport a 2x10, 115, and a 2x12 (which stays stationary at home these days).
I'd never gig with anything smaller than 210 or 112.
Well...its from experience.
I've bought and sold many amps at different power ratings, I know what I can work with. I've also never sold amps leaving me with only one unit. I've had the 750/800-watters and know they're total overkill. I've owned many in the 200 to 400w range and know I can totally gig with it all day long.
I've also learned speaker area and sensitivity is more important.
I've bought and sold many amps at different power ratings, I know what I can work with. I've also never sold amps leaving me with only one unit. I've had the 750/800-watters and know they're total overkill. I've owned many in the 200 to 400w range and know I can totally gig with it all day long.
I've also learned speaker area and sensitivity is more important.
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I suppose it depends on who you ask.
My understanding is the Prodigy was rated 250W RMS. The 400+ was not really given an RMS rating AFAIK, but I have seen comments claiming anywhere from 240W and 305W (max clean)...I usually quote 270W, but I have not measured.
The lows on the 400+ do kick like mule. However if volume is your concern, the Strategy Eight:88 buries it.
I prefer the tone of the 400 non +. So if volume is not a concern that would be my choice.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,062
- 5
- 221,097
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
It's not the "giant" iron transformers that make a difference, it's the entire amp which is about 400 watts RMS output compared with the ~250 watts of the Prodigy. There is also very different voicing between the two amps, more night and day different than the transformers. If you were to compare the Strategy to the 400+, the power is more similar though the voicing is still quite different.
The Strategy/Prodigy are more modern-aggressively voiced than the Bass 400/400+.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,062
- 5
- 221,097
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
The 400+ is closer to 360-400 watts RMS using the same metrics as the Prodigy/Strategy.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,062
- 5
- 221,097
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Right, totally different voicing. The Prodigy was not voiced for much low frequency extension.
I have several 1990's period Mesa master product catalogs and the 400+ was labeled at 300w in there.
But yes, the two amps are voiced and laid out differently.
But yes, the two amps are voiced and laid out differently.
