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How do YOU get the best stage sound?

W

Woofenstein

Jun 9, 2000
530
9
Missouri, USA
#1
I'm looking at options for achieving the best possible stage sound for the entire band, and would like your input if you feel that you've achieved the optimal system for good stage sound.

I'll start off by stating the obvious - every venue is different, and presents a unique challenge for good house and stage sound. I'd like to minimize any issue that can be controlled by proper stage monitoring, and hopefully implement a solution that gives the band more consistency no matter what the room is like.

Here is the standard setup for the band (three piece):

Guitarist/Lead Vocalist - one or two 12" monitors, one mic, and a 50 watt 1x12 guitar combo amp. Monitors are typically at a good volume, and do not tend to interfere with the other band members or FOH. Combo amp is tilt back, and volume is controlled - stage guitar volume is typically not an issue.

Drums - 5 piece kit. Bass and snare mic'd typically, though one tom does get mic'd from time to time. Drums can get a bit loud on stage, but does not seem to interfere with the house sound. Drummer has one 12" monitor. Drums have the obvious effect on stage volume, dictating the needed monitoring volume for bass, guitar and vocals.

Bass/Backing Volcals - either an Ampeg 810 or Schroeder 410R. I will typically tilt the 410R back on heavy duty plastic door stops, though this never really gets the cab tilted enough to point at my head. One 12" stage monitor and one vocal mic. Bass tends to be either just right on stage which results in it being too loud in the room, or too low to hear on stage which results in the best audience sound.

I always listen to the soundman when they ask to turn up/down so I feel that the crowd is getting a good sound nearly all the time. What I'd like to find out is a better way to consistently get good stage monitoring results.

Here is what I'm thinking about:

1 - Heavey duty amp stand for the bass cab. This stand will hold the 410R and I'd get an additional smaller stand for the rack. The stand would allow for much more tilt ability, and allow me to point the speakers directly at my head. This should result in a bass being more audible to me without the need to turn up as much. With this setup I'd only use the 810 for very large outdoor shows, and possibly not even in those situations.

2 - Purchase a monitor for bass player that can handle all portions of the mix other than drums. This monitor can be used in place of a traditional bass cabinet. This should get the bass directed at the bass player, and not interfere as much with FOH. Unfortunately, I feel that this would result in less bass stage volume for the drummer and singer/guitarist. Another option would be getting a "monitor" bass cab that looks like a stage monitor, but is built for bass. This could be used in addition to the regular stage monitor.

3 - In ear monitors - idealy for the whole band. This seems like it would be a great solution for controlled stage volume, but may create a "disconnect" between the crowd and band as the sound would be quite different.

What do ya'll think? I'm open to suggestions as I really want the best stage sound that is possible for the entire band (not just me), but there are so many options it's hard to get a feel for the real pros and cons. Let me know what YOU are doing to get the best stage sound!
 
#2
In ears can work, but they tend to be a love 'em or hate 'em solution.

If your bass is going through FOH and your Schroeder is essentially a stage monitor, then an adjustable amp stand is the most elegant solution -- cheap, little extra hassle to load and set up, and gets your cab where you want it.

If you're not wedded to the 410, then one of the Schroeders with a side-firing speaker can solve the problem of blowing all the bass past your knees. (On really tight stages, I sometimes turn my 21012 on its side so that the 12 is aimed up toward me.)

You might also think about running at lower volume, with your Schroeder and an extension speaker set up as sidefills.
 
#3
derrico1 said:
You might also think about running at lower volume, with your Schroeder and an extension speaker set up as sidefills.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input! I've considered running my speaker in this configuration. If I understand correctly, you would set up the cabinet(s) on the side of the stage, firing across the stage instead of out into the audience, correct? Have you ever tried this, and is the bass still audible, without much FOH interference? Also, were you suggesting two cabinets - one on each side of the stage so that "per cabinet" volume would be lower? If so, would these speakers be pointed toward each other?

I like the idea of the stand as well, and hope to hear from individuals that use this configuration.
 
#4
Well, we use 2 monitors - for the singers. Me and the drummer get their "wash" and that's usually enough. I use a small combo that I tilt back and aim at my face - either in front of me like a traditional monitor or in a "side-fill" position washing across the stage for everyone.

I use a Shuttle 3.0 1x10 but you'd be surprised at the sound and volume it puts out. Plenty for our needs, and when I play non-PA gigs (jazz combo's, etc.) it is plenty good for that as well. 18 pounds, not much larger than 12" cubed, all I/we need.
 
#5
The rationale: rather than blast a single cab from your side for the benefit of bandmates on the far side of the stage who need to lock into you for the groove, running a second cabinet lets you cover the stage at lower volume.

For max flexibility, a pre/power set-up lets you set the cab's volumes independently.

BTW, I've used a stand, as well. If you just want to hear your stage amp better at lower volume, that's the way to go.
 
#6
I do live sound and never use anything smaller then a 1" horn and 15" driver cab one per person. that way no matter what I need to put in the mix it will sound good also using a 31 band EQ per mix will help alot. just being able to adjust what you hear helps a ton if you are not already doing that. You could always setup two speakers on speaker stands on either side of the stage and do side fills they work well to balance the sound on stage. but If you can only do two mixes you might just stick with the front.
 
#7

I always listen to the soundman when they ask to turn up/down so I feel that the crowd is getting a good sound nearly all the time. What I'd like to find out is a better way to consistently get good stage monitoring results.
Click to expand...
That's a good start, but getting a good sound for the audience is more than a good mix. It's all about proper EQ for each channel. If things aren't EQ'd right, things will sound muddy (i.e., the bass is lost in the mix).

The best way to get a clean mix is pretty simple in theory, but can be difficult in application: Limit low frequency output everywhere, exept for the bass guitar and kick drum. Basically, if you can hear guitars, vocals etc. eminating from the subs, they're putting out too much bass. Use the console's bass control on the channel strp, as well as the high pass filter, to roll out the bass of anything that shouldn't be legitimately putting out any bass. For the most part, all other instrumentation and vocals should sound a bit "thin" when listened to individually. The natural tendency is to make them sound "rich and full" (translation: a bit bottom-heavy), but they need to realize that you don't EQ a band the same as you would a solo act. A band needs to be EQd as a larger picture, not what sounds best for each individual by themselves.

Beyond getting things EQd to sound good in the house, there are other issues. If you're successful in toning down the bass output in all the other instruments and vocalists in the house mix, it can all be too-easily blown out by what's coming from the stage. So, bass frequencies needs to be limited in the monitors as well. Fortunately, many equalizers come with adjustable high pass filters; that's the easiest way to do it if you have a monitor EQ. Set it somewhere in the 125 Hz range.

Next comes the stage amps! They should all be bass-limited as well, except for the bass amp. If your house system has subs, I'd limit bass on the bass cabinet as well; using a stage monitor as a bass monitor is even better. Let the subs do their job, don't try to compete with them. In fact, I don't even use a bass cabinet in places that have systems with subs.

As far as in-ears go, I'm finding them problematic for bass because you have limited control over how your bass sounds to you. I'm talking about a "hear yourself in your own mix" issue. To start with, you're at the mercy of whatever bass tone the ear buds or headphones reproduce, which is probably a smooth, hi-fi sound (like you might get by plugging your bass directly into a nice stereo system). That's typically not the best sound for cutting through a mix for the sake of hearing yourself well enough to play your part. Even worse, most monitor feeds do not have any kind of per-channel EQ capabilities, and neither do the personal in-ear mixers. So if everything is bass-heavy and drowning you out, you don't have a lot of options, as any tone control you do from your instrument or equipment rack to help yourself cut through your own monitor mix affects your house sound as well. :(

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
 
#8
Since perception of sound volume and tone vary from venue to venue, I always bring an SPL meter with me and make sure that the guitars and bass are at the "optimum" volumes that we have established for ourselves after years of trial and error. For our purposes, this is about 110 dB at 2 meters (from each cab), A-weighted. Drummer has to match this volume (or else!). Having this objective and quantifiable volume standard is crucial before we tweak our tone to tailor it to room response.

With the whole band playing at this modest stage volume, the SPL meter rarely peaks above 117 dB and every band member can hear everyone else, even with monitors running vocals only. Anyone who turns up their amp during the show gets dirty looks (and **** thrown at them). This is also the loudness limit of what we feel is "acceptable" without having to use hearing protection. There are of course different opinions on this.

We've found that simultaneously cutting bass and boosting guitar around 600-800 Hz and then boosting bass and cutting guitar around 4000 Hz helps both sit better in the mix. In any case, always CUT guitar below 300 Hz or things will get muddy fast. Having the discipline to do this on your individual amps (rather than at the board) is desirable. I always prefer to use my DI out from the bass amp, EQ.

Your actual results may vary.
 
#10
well it all depends on if you're talking as a player or a soundman.

for the most part wayne p is right on the money. can't really disagree with him on 99%

as musicians with amps, our job (and the guitarists' job - lets see if they listen) is to provide ourselves and our bandmates with an audible stage volume. that's about it. IF the pa isn't going to reinforce us, then we have to turn up just to the point where we cover the audience. Above all we have to take constructive advice from the soundman or others about our volume and tone "out there". If possible i go out. listen and make adjustments, even to the point of having someone else play my bass. The same also applies to drummers, keyboard players, horns, etc.

as a soundman i operate within the limits of the system i get to use. my biggest rule of thumb is "if it ain't broke don't fix it". i start with everything flat. then i make low cut and frequency slotting adjustments as needed FOH. for monitors the biggest issues become how much i can put in w/o feedback and w/o the reverberation of the monitors interfering with foh sound. this ends up being a lot of eq setting and hand holding for singers who for the life of them cannot hear their own voice. i also make sure that if players have specific tone needs that we communicate. that's pretty much it.

i've gotten to the point now where i can walk into a room with a crappy sound and pretty much guess where the hack soundman has the board set. a good rule of thumb is if every eq settign on the board is way off flat, the guy needs to get another night time gig. :D

another thought re: monitors and stage sound. as players we need to get used to less than optimal conditions. (not that with the right pa we shouldn't be able to get a good monitor mix). that said, it pays to learn to be able to hear yourself and the important cues from the other musicians when it all sounds like mud on the stage. this may even involve looking at the kick drum fluttering. i almost never use a monitor because, i almost never have the option, and because the more monitors there are on stage the more they can potentially interfere with foh. if i get a good monitor mix i'm tickled pink and enjoy it.
 

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