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How do you guys stand the frets?

I posted this in another fretless thread, but I think it has a lot of relevance here as well:

Feather ruffling time!

I too have noticed this recent 'love the fretless' trend and I have to suspect that it comes mainly from hobby players or bassists performing in an original band where they can experiment with different sounds and ideas. Most working pros that I know tend to use a fretted bass 95% of the time.

Mostly I think this is because all that slidey-mwaaah type fretless sound has a much too narrow application in the real world to warrant using it in place of a fretted. Showing up to a typical rock, blues or funk gig with a fretless is bound to cause problems. Sure, you can lose the vibrato and keep the action high to eliminate the stereotypical 'fretless' sound, but even if you can play in tune, you are basically trying to make your bass sound like a fretted, so why not just use the real thing and not have to deal with intonation issues?

Which brings me to my next point - intonation. This is my main beef with many fretless players. Many do not have the proper technique to play in tune or the ear to notice when they are out. I can't imagine someone just 'picking up' the fretless and immediately using it for all of their gigs unless they were some sort of virtuoso. I've played a few gigs on fretless and all my home practicing goes right out the window when I can't see fretlines on a dark stage or can't hear myself in the mix. How can someone seriously think they are pulling off good fretless playing in a situation like that?

The pros that DO use fretless a lot (Gary Willis, Pino Palladino, etc...) has perfected their art to such an exactness that they can communicate their music equally well on the fretless in most situations. They have trained their ear and muscle memory to play accurately and in tune through years of practice. I seriously doubt that a brand new fretless player would be able to play a fretless to the degree of expertise necessary to pull it off in most situations....

By the way, I'm no fretless wizard, just a young professional bassist with a lot to learn. One of the things I HAVE learned though, is that in order to play fretless at the level I'd expect from myself, I'd have to dedicate a LOT more time and energy than just 'picking it up'. There is no way I could pull off one of my typical gigs on fretless at the same level of skill as fretted unless I had:
a) no music to read or charts to follow
b) enough stage light to see my hand positioning at all times (very rare)
c) a perfect stage mix to hear my intonation in the context of the other instruments (which I've NEVER had at all my gigs)

OR

d) years of practicing fretless to the point where I internalize all of the minute muscle control and memory, and constant, instantaneous 'tuning' of my pitch.

In conclusion - I think fretless bass can sound beautiful in the right hands and in the right context, but I think those types of situations are much rarer than the average player would suspect. Or maybe my standards are too high...

End feather ruffling...
 
What he said. I played for over 20 years before getting a fretless and since I dont have huge hands, alot of stuff I do on fretted are not feasible on a fretless.

Get a short scale fretless! Take the SX (Essex) plunge for about a hundred bones. Great thing to noodle with while you are watching TV-- I like to play along to whatever music is happening on the TV, and a fretless is nice since some of the time the music is not to standard pitch-- helps improve the ear.
 
Stereo Joe, +1. When I made the decision to only play fretless, along with that I made the decision to lock myself in my room for 6 to 8 hours a day with my bass for as long as it took to be capable of doing everything I needed to do. It took quite a while. Eventually, I could play anything I needed to blindfolded, because the muscle memory and the ear were sufficiently developed.

Cheers
 
Stereo Joe, +1. When I made the decision to only play fretless, along with that I made the decision to lock myself in my room for 6 to 8 hours a day with my bass for as long as it took to be capable of doing everything I needed to do. It took quite a while. Eventually, I could play anything I needed to blindfolded, because the muscle memory and the ear were sufficiently developed.

Cheers

Exactly! That is what it takes! Kudos to you for doing it and doing it well! At this point in my career, it is more worth my time to be building up my jazz repertoire and vocabulary, working on sight reading and different styles, and developing my ear. Maybe one day I'll approach fretless bass with the seriousness you did, but for now, I'll stick to my fretted bass on gigs and leave the fretless at home.
 
Stereo Joe, +1. When I made the decision to only play fretless, along with that I made the decision to lock myself in my room for 6 to 8 hours a day with my bass for as long as it took to be capable of doing everything I needed to do. It took quite a while. Eventually, I could play anything I needed to blindfolded, because the muscle memory and the ear were sufficiently developed.

Cheers

Indeed, just think of those double bass players, violin players etc. they never had frets from the start, so what to do but practice ..

D.Don
 
honestly, i started on fretless and played only fretless, and i thought i was all superior because of it...but once i started noodling on fretted basses, i realized how much easier i could hold down, and i had to get my own. i dnno i guess once you get comfortable with fretted basses (and it does take a while), you realize how much relative effort it takes to play anything on fretless.

so now i completely fail at fretless because i haven't been playing it...but i think i'm overall a better bass player because of playing fretted.

if that all makes sense.

i think that i liked the idea of fretless because it lets you have a very personalized sound. but after playing fretted bass in conventional groups, i realized how innappropiate a lot of those slides and vibrato and mwah and whatnot really are. like fretless bass can get really obnoxious if its out of context. so. just some thoughts.

Though the slides and meoows does not have to be there, I use flats on my bass which makes the bass less "meoowish", and I am not in particular practicing those "techniques" at all. It just feels great to be able to keep a more "organic" tone, kind of like with a double bass or something.

;)

D.Don
 
I owned a fretless Guild B-302 that I bought when they came out and was the deadest bass I ever played. It was just lifeless.



The kenny G style playing of David Bromberg's smooth jazz in the 90's did not help the fretless. it's hard not to think of his music when I hear one.


Of coarse you can't say that about Mick Karn, Jaco or Percy Jones.
 
Then a piano would be...stiff?

Oh wait, that's the piano PLAYER. :smug:

Seriously, though, there should be a place for both fretless and fretted in this world. I want a fretless, but right now the wife doesn't see that I need more than the '67 P and the MIM Jazz I currently own. :crying:

Yeah of course there's room for both of em, and this thread is a sure proof on that one...

Your wife don't understand you, but next time she "need" a new pair of shoes, I am sure you will understand her.

;)

D.Don
 
At this point in my career, it is more worth my time to be building up my jazz repertoire and vocabulary, working on sight reading and different styles, and developing my ear.

Honestly, I would have been much better served doing what you are doing. I'd be willing to bet the skills you're building get you more gigs than the skills I built did ...

Best Regards,
Liam
 
Could you elaborate on this?

Thanks.

D.Don

I play alot of double & triple stops, chords, and harmonics where I play the root note then pop a harmonic melody out on top and doing that on a fretless is HARD! (for me) Yes I know I could do it with practice but in a band setting where you are layered in the mix anyway, there is no real practical need for me use the fretless.

I only use the fretless for certain types of songs (slower, or more expressive stuff) but for rocking out, I love the fretted.
 
I posted this in another fretless thread, but I think it has a lot of relevance here as well:

Feather ruffling time!

[too long for a repeat]

End feather ruffling...

What's there to ruffle? It's entirely accurate.


In this particular case, however, the OP is starting out on fretless...I say more power to him...he wants to perfect his playing a fretless...then go for it..

He's also comparing his limited experiences of only playing fretless with that of playing fretted. This is an experience most of us go through in reverse, so it's interesting.

as you indicated...I think he SHOULD put in the necessary time and dedication to be a good fretless player.
 
I also like fretless: I'm currently eyeing an Ibanez Musician fretless conversion that played and souded beatiful. Everytime I've had a fretless in my life, I devoted a huge chunk of my playing time to getting atuned to it and never really could, at least not in a band setting while singing backup, dancing and interacting with the crowd. In cases like this, my intonation would go off and there's nothign worse than bad intonation except bad singing and I came to the realization that I would do both live on fretless.

The need for the "mwahh" sound in 99% of my projects also wasn't there so I always ended up selling my fretless basses a few months after buying them.

Also, all frets aren't created equal. I personally can't stand the jumbo type frets that come on most basses, preferring smaller wire or vintage size. I remember playing a Carvin once and it had frets that could be used as speedbumps on the street, so that may influenece your judgement.