Double Bass How do you remove the a laminated top?

[anonymous0726]

An M-80 is always a consideration...

 

[Mudfuzz]

One of the best ways that I have heard of so far is a putty/butter knife or something of the sort and hot water: dip the knife in the water and slowly work the seem, dip work, dip work and so on, it might take a wile but it less damaging the a M-80.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Economics has a lot to do with it. Especially with kids, though not for everyone is that a factor. Care of it is the biggest concern - a fellow or girl - fellow with a fancy bass has a hefty responsibility, and lots of bass players of my aquaintance are all that well heeled. Only a few.

That sounds more like "you don't need to buy an expensive carved bass in order to get a good sound and a playable instrument". Which is a lot different than "plywood basses are better than carved basses, which are all headaches except for the ones Ken Smith can afford."

I can certainly agree with the first statement, the second all I have to do to prove it wrong is pick up my curent bass.

Basses and wives - may be a bad comparison. I never had a bass that could cook. Or, come to think of it, a wife that could, either.

But you've cooked on bass, right? And if the humidity was too high, it was hard to get a good sound out of the wife...

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Oh, I see what w' mean - no Mrs. SmackGinty went the way of most Kays - held up for 20 years plus a little, then give out. Found 'er someone more resonnsible. That'd be about twenty year ago, I could've had another Kay run it's cycle by now.

Butch 'y know, I come from a sorta de-pauperate environment, off up in the Maine woods just a little south of Patch Mountain, and there weren't hardly much of anything up there fer comparison, except a feller named Dwight Emery, and he run off to the city - Honolulu, I think it were, to play in that symphony over there. Short o' that, bass pickers were a rare breed in the 50s. Oh, I played fer a few folks since, but likely no one you ever heard of. So y' can't take me too seriously, least wise I never did, nor did she.

I can't get that from here. Is this what it means to be from Maine?

Chattanooga.....hmmm. Lessee, Jim Ferguson's over in Nashville, he's got a nice Hawkes. I don't know what Ron Brendle is playing these days, used to have a German bass. He's in Charlotte, but he gets to Asheville a pretty good bit. Oh and Sam'l lives right up there in Maine. He's got a coupla nice basses.

 

[matt macgown]

I might notta made sense - my "go - devil" has gained several pounds since I last used it on the firewood pile as I have been this week, and that, together with scraping on my new tailpice, and being pretty blind, I don't alway come up with the right interpretations of what I'm reading or what I'm writing.

I have met some fine bass players in the south, no questions about that, after 25 years more or less in Mississippi and, and Chattanooga. I get a lesson everywhere I play. I don't know the people you have mentioned, however. Last time I played in Maine was the "Up with People" concerts, about a month of that, with the Bangor S.O. That, I wasn't prepared for - expecting a "country orchestra" playing half out of tune, I found I really had to work to keep up. Several bassists, some from Boston, some from the National S.O., a couple locals, great musicians imported from everywhere. But I didn't get to make the aquaintance of any. In and out, every night. Maine is full of good musicians.

I've played all over Alabama, Miss., no. FL., (even on the streets of the big easy) and in my opinion, the bass world is far different than it was when I began. Wonderful players.

I used to play with the Doanes, and others in Maine, who were top jazz musicians (they were very tolerant of me). Some are still working!

 

[Sam Sherry]

The Bangor Symphony recently celebrated its centennial. Yep, they draw on a broad and deep pool of talent.

Al and Don Doane are still playing. Al's a perfectly good bassist. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] was a fine trombonist before his stroke. Now, he plays valve-horn, bent over in a chair -- and he still swings like crazy.

What we have here in Maine are some very fine jazz musicians who lack a venue. A few: Link Removed, who won the Monk composition award a few years back. Mark Kleinhaut has recorded some very tasty records with folks like Bobby Watson and Tiger Okoshi. Link Removed has played in Europe and really has a unique and beautiful style. Gary Wittner travels all over showing Monk-on-Guitar, and the Monk family digs him, too.

Too bad we have to take $50 background gigs. And don't say it hasn't changed: Ten years ago the going rate was $75 !!


Now back to the matter at hand. In Maine, we remove the top from a plywood bass using an SUV . . .

 

[matt macgown]

Thanks for that info. For example, I didn't know Al Doane had suffered a stroke, or that his bro Don was still about. Don used to keep his strings so high that I couldn't even squeeze them down!

Portland was filled with good musicians when I lived there - Coolie Johns, Dick Morton, with whom I played for several years, with Don Gordon, and Mary Lee in the Victoria - called something else now, as I recall, but it was still going the last time I hopped off a bus there on loswer Congress St.

Tom Bucci is listed at Gorham, still (where I studied for 4 yrs). I played a lot with him, too. Little theater, gigs, etc. I tried to play with Coolie (Alex), but he knew far too many changes for me! I was then a "linear bass technician." You can likely fathom that. At about 40 years old, I really began to learn "bass." Down south. Maybe even 45!

We played with a fellow who introduced electric clarinet, too, often - Brad Terry, I think. Lew Lennon - fancy schmancy hotel gigs with white tuxes, etc. (I think his girfriend later choked himto death in the hospital.) Lew could play anything there was to play on clarinet, and we even did some ghost records at ?WGAN to farm out to a certain clarinet player "way down south." All I ever got out of it was $60 per, though - when I first started with Lew at the old Columbia hotel, he c brought me a stack of bass music about 2 feet high and 2 wide, adn said "memorize it." Which I did. He had come back from playing at Disney World most of his career.

The only two jazz bass players I knew in Portland were Dick Pettenngill (I would up with his job at the Vic) and Al Doane, though Dick Brooks played with Alex a good bit. He knew the changes!

Oh yeah, and for a ocuple years I did the Downeast festival with Don, as house bass player. Visits to Maine in the summer. More dixieland bands in Maine than in N.O. Tru Dat.

Poland Spring House - used to be the Jack Paar studio - that was a hoot! Played half time in a society band for Ed Sullivan people, then half in a Latin band - acoustic bass guitar - for the guy who arranged all the Latin music for Sullivan. Some real funny things went down there!

"The times, they are a' changin'"

 

[matt macgown]

Well, no one so far has answered my question about Kay front removals- I have taken the tops of a few Kays and some Englehardts, and always found the same thing - blocks glued onto some sort of backing material, and the original glue stuck like the devil to them. What I was sort of wondering was, is this STOP for Kays and Englehardts, or is this STOP ingeneral? Now days the upper linings look like thin strips of bent wood glued around the inside edges.

Anyway, that was the most difficult part in removing a Kay - Englehardt top, and a miserable task. I've replace a few of those tops that either sunk in, or had steam/water damage and "sunk out." I'd rather top a Juzek any day. And don't remember what sort of lining Jus had, but they seem easy to remove. "Pop!"

I dunno - maybe I answer my own question here, because I imagine they made 'em all the same. I'd use a saber saw before takling another one of those things off.

 

[Bob Branstetter]

The Kay inside linings were made by making saw kerfs every half inch or there abouts deep enough so that the wood could be easily bent and then glued to the inside of the ribs. While this method is not as neat and tidy as traditional bent linings, it was probably much faster to do it that way in a production line environment. I believe the fibre you mentioned was simply the part of the inside lining wood strip that was not cut through by the kerfing.

 

[matt macgown]

That sounds right. I'm sure you are right about the "fiber" part. These cuts were trapezoidal, probably machined.

 

[ba$$88]

My 1950 C-1 just had to be repaired for my block on the bottom and I had a laminate problem. I guess the hide glue was falling apart. Now that the work was done on it and its setup good it sounds great. My top hasn't had a problen with caving in yet even after more than 50 years. I would suggest having it repaired. It might be worth it in the long run. Good luck

 

[jneuman]

Unfortunately, Kay C-1's are a dime a dozen here in the States. Maybe it's different in the UK.
Yes, I've only seen 3 here. 2 belonged to visiting players, and one was in a dealers . They all sounded loud and deep. I notice that Harvie S is playing a Kay now as well, and I remember Arnold Schnitzer saying that Eddie Gomez did a lot of playing on a Kay that he restored. Maybe they are the 5 good ones that Kay made, or maybe there is a 6th?
Looking back at past threads, I see that most people seem to agree with you though. Maybe you have to look at a lot of oysters to find a pearl?

Don't get me wrong...I love my Kay. The sound is big and works well for Jazz and it's only a '64 - no big deal. I even played mine with compliments in my local community symphony for years. I'ts just that since they were mass produced, they really arn't worth getting fussy over. I wish someone would do a definitive study of what makes the older ones so much better though.

Jon

 

[jneuman]

That sounds more like "you don't need to buy an expensive carved bass in order to get a good sound and a playable instrument". Which is a lot different than "plywood basses are better than carved basses, which are all headaches except for the ones Ken Smith can afford."

I can certainly agree with the first statement, the second all I have to do to prove it wrong is pick up my curent bass.

I think the point was that there are a lot of 19th and 20th Century factory basses which trade for lot's of money that were crappy when they were new and don't sound much better now. Of course some percentage of these sound really good. Plywood basses tend to sound more consistent from bass to bass, have a loud low end when set up properly, and are much less trouble to maintain for the average beginner or intermediate player who is with the school or community orchestra. Just don't expect to play concertos with them.

 

[Jeff Bollbach]

Every Kay that I have played over here in London has been good. Just because the front is done in doesn't mean that the bass is " firewood". Don't ruin a potentialy good instrument. Unless you are very adept at instrument building; or are prepared to do courses to get good; or can get a luthier to take you on as an apprentice.... well... get a real luthier,Arnold Schnitzer,Bob Brandsetter etc to make you a new front. They like working on good instruments, admitedly not for free, but you obviously haven't yet realised how hard it is to get a good instrument. If you want to get into luthiery , ok , but I get the feeling you want to do it on the cheap. What you are attempting is a hard thing to do; it is a harder thing to do cheaply.
Just my experience, as I am at present having a new front put on one of my basses.

Interesting that you need a new table-I'm wondering what would precipitate such drastic action?

 

[ba$$88]

Just don't expect to play concertos with them.
- jneuman

think I got lucky with my Kay. I bought it for 500 bucks, but invested some work on it. I played the Dragonetti concerto with full orchestra on my Kay .

 

[matt macgown]

Wow! I could think of C -s in a chamber group, but never thought of one as a solo axe.

 

[jneuman]

Just don't expect to play concertos with them.
- jneuman

think I got lucky with my Kay. I bought it for 500 bucks, but invested some work on it. I played the Dragonetti concerto with full orchestra on my Kay .

Good man! Actually I would have ended up playing the Dragonetti with my orchestra if I had gotten it together in time for the concerto competition. With hindsight though, I think I wasted a lot of effort trying to get my Kay to sound good much past the octave. I think that plywood doesn't like to vibrate in those smaller modes. A lot of the sound was coming from the bridge. It sounded great up to VI position though!
-Jon

 

[ba$$88]

Yeah I have the same opinion. My Kay lacks a little past thumb. How old is your Kay? I'm always interested to hear how people come across old basses.

 

[simandlhandle]

Interesting that you need a new table-I'm wondering what would precipitate such drastic action?

Is this my bass you are asking about? OK. Its my big old German bass , which has 43 1/4 inch stop. The front was a bit bowed in when I bought it, but a luthier told me it was stable enough. It sounded great and I bought it, and it was fine for about 14 years. Anyway, it recently got a big crack up the bass bar, the lower front cracked across, as well as parrallel ,to the bass bar. The bow got quite a bit deeper. I slackened the strings off and took it to a luthier for assesment. We eventually decided to take the front off, and the part of the front between the bridge and the bottom saddle, had been thinned down to 2mm. It would need a lot of work; a massive patch ; a new bass bar? The quote for repair was more than his quote for a new front. Even if repaired it wouldn't feel or sound the same as it had, and probably wouldn't be very robust , compared to a new front. Also it was probably thinned down because it didn't sound so good, so a new front should improve it.
If it was a Lott or a Panormo or a name bass then that would be different, but it is just a big "factory " built german.
What do you think?

 

[jneuman]

Yeah I have the same opinion. My Kay lacks a little past thumb. How old is your Kay? I'm always interested to hear how people come across old basses.

Mine is just a 1964. There are tons of these floating around since, at least in California, School districts equipped school orchestras with Kays in the 60's. Mine is an M-1 with violin corners but still has a rosewood fingerboard. I bought mine from a lady who played bluegrass (I think) a long time ago and needed to free up cash. I got it for $400. At the time I was in school and that was the most I could afford.

-Jon