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How do you select cab configuration? (10's,12's,15's,18's?)

There's a big misunderstanding here, Bill. I'm not saying that a larger speaker won't move as fast as a smaller speaker. Instead, I'm talking about how quickly a speaker will respond. A larger mass is more difficult to move and to get back to rest. Music produces a complex signal consisting of very quick changes in frequency and amplitude. A larger speaker responds differently than a smaller speaker to that complex signal. Still, it's comes down to what a particular person prefers sound-wise.

Paul Mac

billfitzmaurice said:
It does so at approximately .7 x the speed of light (the speed that electrons travel through the voice coil) irrespective of cone size. The notion that a larger/heavier cone is incapable of moving as fast as a smaller/lighter one in response to a signal seems logical, but this is an example of where logic and physics part company. It is true that a larger/heavier cone will not respond as accurately at higher frequencies as a smaller/lighter one. However, the mass differential required to do so is along the lines of a 10:1 ratio or more; the difference between a fifteen inch and ten inch cone in this respect is insignificant.
 
well all I can say is that I've been an Eden user since 98 and I have no trouble endorsing these products after owning many other brand of bass amps in all configurations... And I know for a fact that no matter the " curve ' as mentioned earlier or the sensitivity and response in the specs the final answer always come down to what you hear and your taste... And for me the Eden amps and D210XST or D112XLT cabinets in may case give me the fattest yet tightest bottom end combined with a very loud stage sound without having to push the amp hard and that's with the EQ flat and in most case verry little Enchance added ... I often played on festival stages with just a WT550 and one D210XST to hold the groove for a Latin band and without bass being fed to the monitors... Just try them and be your ears and taste be the judge... PS: If 10" & 12" were not good enough for deep bass how do you explain all the car stereo sub out there or self powered subs for PA using them ...
 
I own a D410xst and the WT1205.And it is loud! Eden is set apart in a lot of ways from other products. True enough the specs got me interested ,but the test drive sold the equipment.I get more bottom end than any of the 15s Ive owned and more crispness than the 2 12's I currently use for noodlin around. I am not a paid endorser , I just like good equipment and was able to pay for it. I should've got this years ago...Nevermind it wasn't out.:hmm: :D
 
I own a D410xst and the WT1205.And it is loud! Eden is set apart in a lot of ways from other products. True enough the specs got me interested ,but the test drive sold the equipment.I get more bottom end than any of the 15s Ive owned and more crispness than the 2 12's I currently use for noodlin around. I am not a paid endorser , I just like good equipment and was able to pay for it. I should've got this years ago...Nevermind it wasn't out yet.:hmm: :D
 
I bought my first Eden gear completely unaware of any specs, mfg claims, mag ads, etc. In fact, I had never heard of Eden until I heard one. I have been playing since 1965, and there have been times I bought from "brand loyality". Hence 5 or 6 Gibson basses before I bought my first Ric or P bass.

Now, after the years have rolled through 18's,15's, 12's; 10's, and even 8's, I find my old body likes the sound of smaller cabinets. Technic and exprience play a much larger part than speaker size. Undoubtablity, most accomplished players on this forum can wrench a great sound out of even sub-par equipment. But being the players that we are, we like our own favorite bass and amp, regardless of specs and manufactor's claims. If it makes the sound I have always heard 'in my head', then it works for me (God forbid it be a Gibson bass with a PV amp)!

For me right now, it's an Eden rig with my choice of (2) D112XLT cabs, with or without a D410T, and my G&L L2500's. Ask me, and I would tell you it's the best sound I have even had. But then I thought the same thing back in '73 when I was running a Fender Bassman head speker out into a PV 200 bass head into (2) Ampeg 215 (altecs) with a Les Paul Recording bass. But then I was in a lot better physical condition back then. I'll take my modular Eden rig nowadays!

Mark

Bass with Grace
 
Bill. I'm not saying that a larger speaker won't move as fast as a smaller speaker. Instead, I'm talking about how quickly a speaker will respond.
It's the same thing. The amp doesn't send out an electrical pulse to which the speaker responds when it gets around to it; response is instantaneous. For the speaker to function it can't be otherwise. It's like comparing cannon balls and BBs. If you shoot one of each at a muzzle velocity of 2,000 FPS, which will be travelling faster? You're assuming that the moment of inertia of the cone affects it's initial response to the signal. It doesn't. It only affects what the cone does after the signal has been removed, as seen in waterfall plots, and those are influenced as much by the cabinet as they are by the drivers in it.
 
Back to the original post-after years of different combinations (Peavey 115, Cerwin-Vega 118, SWR SoB 115, Genz-Benz 210, Genz-Benz 112, Eden 210, Eden 212), the sweetest combination I've played through is an Eden 550, an Eden 212 (in 4 ohm) and an Eden 210. For some time, I used the Eden 210 and my SWR 115, but I found the low-mids lacking and the high-mids and lows were domnating the sound, causing me to EQ around it. Since I got the 212, my tone is exactly where I want it. I'm playing blues, jazz, country and "singer/songwriter" stuff, so I'm not into an aggressive slap/pop style that would have probably led me to a 410 cab.
 
therefore which one will reach a speed of 2,000 FPS first, and after a small amount of time, which will be travelling faster, and which one will reach a fixed distance first]
Read the question again. Both objects are travelling at the same speed. Do we also have to consider which weighs more, a pound of feathers or a pound of lead?
Nothing about the physics of a speaker response is instantaneous
The electrons energizing a loudspeaker voice coil travel at about 130,000 miles per second. A typical voice coil contains perhaps twenty feet of wire. I'll let you do the math how long it takes an electron to make the trip, but as far as I'm concerned instantaneous is as good a description as any.
 
Here's where the physics gets interesting: There are all sorts of design parameters to play with, including cone mass. The system response depends on these parameters. Once you impose the condition that a speaker should have a desired response curve, then the parameters cease to be independent of one another. Thus, you can't talk about what happens when you increase the cone mass, unless you are careful to account for everything else that has to change, in order to keep the response curve within the ballpark of where you want it to be.

The interdependency of design parameters is why I prefer to think of the sensitivity curve as the starting point for describing a speaker, and not particulars such as cone diameter and mass. To the best of my knowledge (that is, until Bill F corrects me), the time decay response of a speaker is dictated by the resonant frequency and total damping coefficient, and these have to be the same for two speakers that have the same response curve. Damping doesn't go away when you remove the signal, because electrical damping remains as long as the amplifier is hooked up and turned on.
 
PolkaHero said:
A 2x10 cabinet that goes down to 30 Hz?! Sorry, but I'm not buying that.
I've been playing bass since about '69, most of that time through all manner of 15's or 18's. When I tried a Nemesis 210 I heard clarity & extended lows I'd never had.
I've since upgraded to Eden 210XST that has more accurate low end than any other speaker I've used. No low-mid hump to make it sound louder; no boomy resonance; just honest reproduction - nearest thing to good studio monitors I've found.

In comparison, 15's always seem to have a mid-range quack that doesn't suit my playing. 18's are pretty useless without something else on top.

I'd like to try a good 12" (eg Eden 112XLT) but haven't seen one in this country.

The best Ampeg box I've used is an 8x8"; I'd like to try a 4x8 or 6x8 with better drivers.

And going down in driver size again, in the 80's I did a lot of gigs with a stack of Bose 802's (8x4") that had great clarity and clean bottom end.
 
ToneRanger said:
I've been playing bass since about '69, most of that time through all manner of 15's or 18's. When I tried a Nemesis 210 I heard clarity & extended lows I'd never had.
I've since upgraded to Eden 210XST that has more accurate low end than any other speaker I've used. No low-mid hump to make it sound louder; no boomy resonance; just honest reproduction - nearest thing to good studio monitors I've found.

In comparison, 15's always seem to have a mid-range quack that doesn't suit my playing. 18's are pretty useless without something else on top.

I'd like to try a good 12" (eg Eden 112XLT) but haven't seen one in this country.

The best Ampeg box I've used is an 8x8"; I'd like to try a 4x8 or 6x8 with better drivers.

And going down in driver size again, in the 80's I did a lot of gigs with a stack of Bose 802's (8x4") that had great clarity and clean bottom end.

While it may certainly SOUND like deep bass to you, your ears don't do calculations, which as Bill said, between interdependent t/s parameters and their application in various enclosure designs. Stating what something SOUNDS like is most certainly not proof of what is IS like. If you're happy with the response curve and tonal character of the 210xst, then I'm happy for you. Nobody is arguing for what sounds great or what doesn't. The discussion regards whether the published specifications for a product are erronious/bloated. Frequencies in the area of 60-160 hz sound like deep bass when they're loud, but that doesn't mean these frequencies are deep bass.

Again, I strongly suggest that one/some of you attempt the experiment I suggested. I think you will be surprised at the difference in deep bass production between a bass cab and a true subwoofer.

Also. I wouldn't have any problem with Eden's specs on their cabs if they would put them in context. If that response quote was contextualized with information about the measurement method, cabinet orientation and placement, room size, microphone, etc. then there would be no cause to say something smells fishy.
 
Another problem is that we're mostly not used to bass guitar cabinets accurately reproducing frequencies below 60 Hz or so, so when we *do* hear it, it doesn't necessarily sound like we expect it to, and that sound can be a lot less musically useful for many styles of music than we may think when considering the situation in a purely theoretical manner.
 
fdeck said:
I see a pattern. The frequency response and sensitivity figures are meaningless without curves.

My guess is, without stating it, most mfrs are going to publish a frequecncy response at -6 dbs - a pretty forgiving 'Y' factor. You're absolutely right through, without at least knowing what the 'Y' factor is (ie -3dbs, -6dbs, etc) a frequency response doesn't tell you much of anything. Tough to assume anything, but most specs I've seen are at either -3dbs or -6dbs. The -6dbs obviously can widen that spread pretty significantly.
 
After scanning (admittedly quickly) through four pgs of posts in this thread, I'm amazed there were essentially only a handful of posts that referred to practical considerations like gigging needs as being a consideration of cab configurations. IMHO, there's a whole 'practical' side to this in addition to tone, specs, physics, design, brand rep, etc.

Newget - how do you intend to actually use your new rig? Do you gig? Do you record? Do you primarily jam in the garage or basement? Do you primarily throw a CD on the player and jam to it? Which head are you using? Do you need to travel with your rig? IMHO, these questions need to be answered before anyone can give you an intelligent recommendation. Getting great bass tone in a 10'X12' bedroom is a completely different proposition than getting great tone in a 10,000+ sq ft. club with 20 ft. ceilings.

Here's what I have and the whys. It may or may not relate to your situation, but hopefully it might shed some light that there's more to this than freq response, physics, and brand name.

What I own:

Eden WT550
Two Avatar B210s (8 ohm)
Avatar B115H (8 ohm)
SWR WM10

Why I own it:

I bought the Eden because I liked the sound. I bought the Avatars because I had heard good things about them and after receiving them - liked the sound. I've found I'm a bigger fan of punch, than throbbing/booming lows. With the WT550 and a little tweaking, I can get plenty of bottom end out of my tens without losing any tightness or 'focus'. It's probably just perception, but to my ears most 15s lose a little of the punchiness that I like to hear in bass tone. I'm a weekend warrior in a classic rock/blues band that played 85 times last year. That means I loaded/unloaded my rig every weekend last year - sometimes twice - plus occasional rehearsals. FWIW, I also own the PA and thus loaded it all those times too. Practical considerations therefore have become a top priority in my situation.

My standard gig rig is the WT550 with either one or both of the B210s. Each weighs appx. 50 lbs, so I preferred keeping them separate versus owning a 95 lbs. 410. Regardless of the fact one can put casters on a 410, I'm still the one loading/unloading it into the wagon at home - alone. At 3 AM, 95 lbs. is more than I feel like wrestling out of the car. Some venues require volume - so having the two 210 cabs put together at 4 ohms is a nice option to have for the more raucous places (which is usually where we play). But sometimes we do small venues with tight stages and having the option to bring out only the one 210 is nice (I prop it up vertically). I've kept the B115H soley for the purpose of doing the occasional outdoor gig. We do 2 or 3 per year and if you ever play outdoors, you'll find sound tends to dissipate/disappear quickly over a fairly small distance. I'll use the 115/210/210 combo at 2.6 ohms for those rare outdoor gigs. The 115 is on casters as it's a little heavier at 65 lbs. When you need to (sometimes) unload 200+ ft away from the stage, casters on the heavier stuff or a dolly is nice to have - or buy lighter cabs.

Then there's the subject of rehearsal. Though I bought the SWR WM10 back when doing primarily acoustic gigs, I just can't bring myself to part with it. Occasionally I need to travel to rehearsal and the thing is nice and light (maybe 30 lbs?), yet has 80W of punch to keep up with even moderately loud rehearsal volumes (we try to keep it under control though). It also happens to be the best damn sounding recording option I own. I simply mic it up, and it sounds great on the demos we've cut in the basement. I also use it it as a personal monitor onstage for my vocals. I wedge it into the crotch of a keyboard stand and point it straight at my head. Since it's up close to my ears, I can run it at fairly low volume, avoiding feedback, and it's as clear as a bell. And why not? Bass amps, keyboard amps, and acoustic guitar amps are remarkably similar to PA circuitry.

Sorry for the Russian-novel length of this post, Newget. But I just think there's a lot more to this than the freq response and physics of a 10 versus 12 versus 15 versus 18 inch speaker. How you use it, how often you use it, and where you use it should be as important to you as how much you like the sound.

Best of luck in your search for your new rig. Have fun shopping. It's fun to try out all the new stuff. Just don't forget you'll be the one that has to carry/load/unload it if you plan to play outside your house.

:)

Oh - and Newget. I think you were the one asking about ever having to turn up the WT550 past noon. FWIW - at 4 ohms, the thing is plenty loud with lots of headroom. I run my gain fairly cleanly - barely tripping the clip light when absolutely hammering my low B-string (but I play with a pretty light touch). I've got lots of headroom and have never had to turn it up past noon. My EQ is set fairly flat - occasionally adding a number or so of low and low mids. I've had no trouble with either headroom or volume in clubs that typically seat/hold 100-200. By my best guess, we play rooms between 2500 and 4000 sq ft.
 
It seems to me that a lot of this discussion has to do with the fact that most of us associate the sound of 15" drivers with older, slower (slew rate) amps, which had less control over the speaker, and also the 15" speakers back then had smaller, less powerfull motors, whereas most 10" based speakers have appeared in the last 20 years, with much more capable amps, cabinets designed for flatter response etc.

I haven't played a 15" on a gig in a long time, but recently, I used a Markbass 15" in a store, and it had the kind of tone I have come to expect from 10"s.

Also, why doesn't EDEN give proper specs : 30Hz to 14KHz + or - XdB ?
 
Gee, when I played on a Eden Nemesis 320 and a Nemesis 4x10, it sounded awsome. I jumped on my friends Traveler and 4x10. That was just awsome! Clear, clean, blended well with those I play with. Sounds much better than Ampeq, Trace Elliot, SWR, and just anything else that you can mention.

I know what sounds good and mixes well.
 
Thanx Mark Douglas, thanx for the long version because we seem to share similar situation, although I didn't do 85 gigs last year, more like 45. Nonetheless you are solidifying my decision to get the 550 (currently use the 330) and adding the speaker cab of my choice for tone and usability. I'm using the Nemesis 212 which sounds fantastic to me and will now get another nsp212 driven by the 550@2ohms. This sounds like it will give me the power and tone I need. To top it off they are 50 lb. cabs, very light and manageable, however its the only thing that bugs me is the lightweight. I fear it will not be durable enough compared to the David line, which prompts the question should I just get the D212xlt??? One thing that has discouraged me is my current 212 is in the shop because of a distortion from one of the 12's. I don't know what caused it yet and what the final repair will be(still waiting to hear from tech) I can only hope it is rugged enough. I had an SWR Triad for 10 years, one solid piece of equipment with decent tone, I only ask the Nemesis for the same.