I couldn't say it all any better.
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I couldn't say it all any better.
We have a regional blues jam twice a month. Some really good players and some great ones, too. About two years ago, a guy showed up to play his first time ever with other people. He told the jam master and they made sure they played simple songs. He wasn't so good.
Three years later the man has purposefully learned the catalog of Willie Dixon, Wolf and Waters. He still doesn't ad lib well, but the man is rock solid otherwise.
I'm glad everyone stuck with him.
Three years later the man has purposefully learned the catalog of Willie Dixon, Wolf and Waters. He still doesn't ad lib well, but the man is rock solid otherwise.
I'm glad everyone stuck with him.
There's always something to learn from anybody, maybe even more so from someone who you would initially dismiss. The initial dismissal itself might point out a blind spot in oneself. That said, I don't usually go to jam sessions, because I like to work on projects, or back up people playing songs. And I am too acutely aware of my own limitations to be over-critical of others.
The only thing that puts me off is arrogance coupled with a refusal to improve. I see music as part of my life as a human, and choose to associate with musicians more or less the same way I choose to associate with anyone else.
The only thing that puts me off is arrogance coupled with a refusal to improve. I see music as part of my life as a human, and choose to associate with musicians more or less the same way I choose to associate with anyone else.
I play in a bunch of different churches, so most weekends, given all the different musicians that play all the different locations, I'm in a different band than I've ever been in before. My standards don't change - my prep is always aimed at the same level. The standards of those I play with, well, that varies a bunch. Some weekends I'm hanging on by my fingernails, keeping up with what's going on. Some weekends, I'm helping others understand where the chord changes are or the like. The nice thing is that whatever the situation, it's at least somewhat different the next weekend. If the situation ever changed, I could see things getting bothersome over time, but in my case, we're under the gun to assemble what we have into the best it can be in pretty short time.
As far as joining a band, I've had the same standard for a while. If your band would accept me as a vocalist, you're not good enough to have me play bass for you. My range has never been good for rock music, and after having half my thyroid out, I lost a few of the higher notes I used to have, so the standard is even more rigid.
I once played in a band where we fired the drummer (apparently not an original idea). We practiced without one for a while before we got another, and that experience taught me the importance of timing. It's not the responsibility of the drummer - it's everyone's responsibility. I'd much rather play with folks that hit a wrong note IN TIME here and there than folks who play the right notes, but not in time. That Pink Floyd cover band, if you listen, had the right notes, but they arrived...whenever they arrived. If I went to an audition for that band, I might stay for the whole audition, but I wouldn't come back - a band with that level of timing issues ain't going nowhere.
As far as joining a band, I've had the same standard for a while. If your band would accept me as a vocalist, you're not good enough to have me play bass for you. My range has never been good for rock music, and after having half my thyroid out, I lost a few of the higher notes I used to have, so the standard is even more rigid.
I once played in a band where we fired the drummer (apparently not an original idea). We practiced without one for a while before we got another, and that experience taught me the importance of timing. It's not the responsibility of the drummer - it's everyone's responsibility. I'd much rather play with folks that hit a wrong note IN TIME here and there than folks who play the right notes, but not in time. That Pink Floyd cover band, if you listen, had the right notes, but they arrived...whenever they arrived. If I went to an audition for that band, I might stay for the whole audition, but I wouldn't come back - a band with that level of timing issues ain't going nowhere.
I'm not a huge fan of jamming anyway, because the ones I've taken part in have more often than not turned into volume wars/wankfests, but if you're just talking about informally playing with somebody, I don't think of things in terms of "standards," but rather whether it's enjoyable for me. There are unschooled players out there who have great feel and soul and can play and sing in tune, who can be fun to jam with despite the communication impediments. I also know people who can play any chord you name, but they can't keep time, they cut measures, play out of tune, etc. The bottom line for me is not whether they can play a chord I name, but whether it's fun for whatever reason. If it is, I've got all the patience in the world. If not, then I'll find an excuse next time I'm invited.
If you're talking about a potential gig situation, then the ability to communicate is key, and if another player hasn't got the most basic vocabulary for talking about chords, rhythms, etc, they'd better be so fabulous it's still worth the trouble.
If you're talking about a potential gig situation, then the ability to communicate is key, and if another player hasn't got the most basic vocabulary for talking about chords, rhythms, etc, they'd better be so fabulous it's still worth the trouble.
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If I was making money and happy, it would not matter. If I was "just jammin" and happy it would not matter.
Our jams are run pretty tight, which has run off a few of those folks who want to play 30 minute solos. With the quality of players there, it's easy to learn the importance of listening and watching to get those cues. It pays off when things go awry on stage during gigs.
- Jan 26, 2014
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- Disclosures
- I teach lessons and perform live music in and around San Diego CA. Sometimes I even make money doing it!
I'll pretty much try anything that time allows, see if I'm having fun, and decide further based on that. I've had plenty of fun playing with original bands and weekend warriors who don't know a lick of theory. There are plenty of very good part players that can't necesssarily "jam" and that doesn't bother me, and I get to stretch my knowledge of songs I wouldn't normally play.
Things that are non starters are more like basic musicianship or personality problems: playing out of tune, too loud, sloppy, rude, lots of arguments, that kind of thing. I have done my share of "charity work" but I'm upfront about what I am able to offer, or more accurately, lack of what I am able to offer. Once I know the tunes well, I'm not going to rehearse unless there are gigs on the books. I'm probably not going to be available much on weekends between April and November. If it's an original band, I don't necessarily expect to be paid for gigs, but I do expect to be paid a small fee for recording. So obviously I'm not setting myself up to be a permanent member of the band, but every once in a while somebody contacts me who can use what I'm willing to offer until they find a permanent player. I have fun doing it or I wouldn't do it.
Ductapeman
Ringmaster and Resident Geriatric
Myself, I'll play with anyone anytime. I have enough students to keep it interesting (my grandchildren). But if the goal is to make money, then the standards are a whole lot higher.
It....depends.
I did short stint as part of a crew hosting an open mic night several years back, and some of these guys - WOW. Apparently, there are some folks who *cannot hear the difference between a major chord and a minor chord* - kinda mind-boggling. HOWEVER, in that setting, it's generally all for fun so you coach the dudes, hope that they catch on, then bump them after three tunes.
A jam in someone's garage? Well, I've done plenty of that too (I'm not suck a prig that I'll refuse to jam with nice folks) - if there is one or more guys who are simply awful, I'll play for a while then find an excuse to leave. No point in letting yourself get frustrated by someone who is new - and unless I'm being paid, I'm not there to instruct.
But what is simply unbearable is joining a working band only to find that things like...
- The keyboard player can't play outside of C and so uses his transpose button to change keys within a song (leading to weird gaps / delays for the key parts)
- Drummers who either compulsively speed up or slow down or - and this one was strange - can't play WITHOUT a metronome.
- Sax players who regularly play out of tune
- Horn players who, while highly competent, are freakin' DEAF so they have to double mic their sax or clarinet so it is SCREECHING over everyone else, just so that THEY can hear themselves
- Singers who can't find a single natural note with a searchlight and both hands
- Stoned guitar players who just laugh when you correct them about a break or a chord.
I may be in the minority here, but I avoid "jams" like the plague, so never use this as a way to measure prowess. I view them as a complete waste of time. I only care if other players can learn songs quickly so they can be gigged out. The only thing I ever get out of jams are inflamed fingers.
My closest friend is a guitar player and much better musician than I am, and continuing to play with him has vastly improved my own music knowledge and we're starting to sound pretty good together. Now another buddy is starting to play guitar and I've been jamming with him the same way.
How does one stop sucking without better players to learn from?
How does one stop sucking without better players to learn from?
someone handing me this would bugs me off a lot, from someone who can read music this is ... not that great. Especially writting the little 3 to tell it is triplet when you are in 12/8 ... it is like over kill.
That's a really great question.
I used to tell students to find players that were better than them to work with - but not WAY better than them. You know - better "enough" so that they learn but not so much better that they frustrate folks. It's kind of a blurry thing, yeah?
But it all depends on the gig / night: True story - - I saw George Duke play, and in the final song, he let one of the musician's nephew sit in on bass. The kid was *not* ready, looked scared out of his wits and kind of hacked it up, but the band was so good (and George may well have been the nicest guy to ever take a stage) that they made it work. The kid was *not* good, but no one really cared - it was all good fun, and I'll bet he learned a few things that night. So yeah - it depends.
I auditioned for a band last night where it's clear that the band leader is *not* the best musician in the room, but he has that "front-guy" thing that makes up for it. Heck, he is a guitar player who *does not play solos* - what does THAT tell you! Lord, that means lotsa bass solos for old Harry... eeeech.... and I *hate* listening to bass solos, usually.
But I digress...
I have minimum standards I suppose. But I'm pretty much a cover player so that is my bias. If I'm asked to join a cover band, I expect that those I play with make the effort to cover their part. Not necessarily note for note, but in the general ballpark. Signature licks should be pretty dang close, if not exact. I expect bandmates to know something about music and sound enough to not walk all over me. I've played with a lot of players who don't know much about what key they're in, but I'm good with it if they show up with their part covered. How they get there isn't my concern. People approach music from a variety of ways.
I try not to get angry (that I can control), I just move on. Too many short cuts, skipped chords or important inversions, too much mud that is never addressed, and I'm out.
I sometimes play with people who don't know what it means when I say "it goes to the 5". That's past the threshold of pain, but at least they practice, show up on time, and are nice. If that was my only gig it would drive me crazy, but I also work with players who are significantly more educated than me. It balances out. 
For just a jam:
Keep time.
You should know the difference between major and minor scales/chords. Or at least "happy" from "sad".
Have a basic understanding of your instrument and be able to play at a basic level, without major issues.
For a sit-in
Keep time.
All "just a jam" expectations, PLUS
Be able to play off others by ear reasonably well.
Know the numbers system.
For a gig
Keep time.
All "for a sit-in" rules, PLUS
Be able to improvise reasonably well
Have a professional attitude.
Be reliable.
If you can't keep time without significantly affecting the song, then sorry... we won't be playing together for a while.
I'll play with anyone who is able to make good music with me. That might mean someone with the musical knowledge or "ear" sufficient to allow them to pick up stuff that I do easily and come up with complimentary parts, but it might also be someone with no musical knowledge whatsoever who happens to write interesting ideas that I can then help shape into better "songs."
That said, I don't play with the expectation of making much money, and my main goal is to write and play music that I enjoy. If I were trying to making a living playing cover tunes or if I was into jamming on jazz standards, the situation would have to be a bit different.
That said, I don't play with the expectation of making much money, and my main goal is to write and play music that I enjoy. If I were trying to making a living playing cover tunes or if I was into jamming on jazz standards, the situation would have to be a bit different.
I wonder if Ben Folds feels the same way. Ben Folds is known as a piano player of course but in his younger days he made a living as a session musician -- playing drums.
I've run into this -- I'm no virtuoso on anything but I play a few different things. I played trumpet with a soul band that got together for once a year party at the drummer's house. (really nice place to play!!) The skill level varied wildly -- the piano player and sax player are amazing, the conga player used to be in the Cleveland Orchestra for god's sake. We all learned to key into the tempo from the conga player and tune out the drummer a little bit. don't know about the bass player's relative skill -- he always knew his parts and sounded good so I enjoyed playing with him. Who cares who is "better?"
But I would get frustrated with the guitar player. I sometimes had to really bite my tongue to avoid saying lemme show you how to play that the right way.
