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How far would you lower standards?

#121
I'm not sure there's a clear & reliable way for rating or ranking musical "competance", but in the OP's hypothetical

MEKer said:
Lets say you said, "Lets jam around in Dm.". And then it was evident, that say perhaps the guitarist, did not really know what Dm was. In fact all you got was, "Oh, I just play by ear." And then you realize he just ain't cuttin' it. Would that hack you off?
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...yes that would hack me off, and I would leave. Or I would demand that Mr. Idiot Guitar Player Who Doesn't Know What Dm Is leave.

I'm a tolerant guy who can often find fun in small pleasures. And sometimes that means playing music that is, for lack of a better word, simplistic. (Which is not the same thing as "simple".) I love getting together and playing with musicians who know how to improvise strict dodecaphony from nothing more than a serial matrix, or musicians who's idea of fun is sight-singing from a Karlheinz Stockhausen score. Or a George Crumb score. But I'm just as happy getting together and playing with musicians who can throw down a tight compelling rendition of "Good Golly Miss Molly". Or "Farmer In The Dell".

However, I draw the line at music that sucks. If you can't play whatever it is that you're trying to play well enough to not sound like a remedial bonehead, I'm not going to find a lot of personal satisfaction in that experience, and my time is better spent elsewhere.
 
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#123
After decades of being a little up myself about musical proficiency, I have decided personality and enjoying making music is what counts. Mind you I do play in a prog band as main band, where the standard is very high. But I love the other stuff I do - with players of all standards - as well. It isn't all about extended soloing in double harmonic scales over 19/8.
 
#125
I'm a non-professional musician. Never made a dime and spent untold numbers of dimes on gear over the years. I have played with a working artist a couple of times when he has working for free in a couple of events.
I have to give him props because I was nowhere near to the level of musician he normally played with and I'm not likely to EVER be. Frankly, I don't aspire to play for pay. But he was always encouraging and when it was several years between working together, he complimented me on my improvement.
However, I would always be honest about my level if asked to work with anyone who's a pro. Also I work with relative novices compared to me) pretty regularly. It's a great joy to play with lesser skilled players because they generally have no ego issues and usually feel privileged to be allowed to play. I feel that way every time I play so I appreciate it in others.
All that said, the last thing I would want to do is hurt a professional musician's reputation or career my MY lack of skill, but playing with better musicians drives me to improve.
 
#126
If it were not for very experienced people with patience and a good heart who put up with my not so (ok not at all!) subtle infractions/mistakes/ lack of knowledge when I picked bass up again many years ago...I would not be anywhere as pathetic as I am now...I would be much...much worse.

I appreciate what they did and what they put up with and I became much better (OK somewhat better) because of it.

We've played together for a long time and I've grown ...and others have grown as well.

That said, I would jam with anyone willing to have a good time and TRY....if they were "bad" and had an ego ("I don't need to get better....I'll play whatever I want") that may be a deal breaker....but I'll play with anyone who wants to make an effort...
 
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#127
A Jam is a Jam... If it were for a gig, to learn songs? Very different story. I played with some great players who could not read music. But they knew there instrument, and could play.
A bad player is a bad player... I don't waste time anymore.
 
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#128
MEKer said:
Let me assume you are not a newbie on bass.
Let me assume you are pretty damn competent.
Let me assume you have even made a living at some part of your life with your instrument.
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Dangerous assumptions. I'm not a newbie, but I'm not very good, honestly.

What would your minimum standard of competence be for other players for you to want to play with them, even just jamming ?
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These days I play with a few bands, so I'm busy enough that my standards are pretty high. If I wasn't in any bands, maybe they'd be lower. Ability to play in key, name basic chords and types, all essential. Like "that's an F major chord I'm playing there." Ability to play together at tempo is also a must. They don't need to be theory experts or classically trained, but I expect someone I'm playing with to know their way around the instrument they're playing.


Example: Lets say you said, "Lets jam around in Dm.". And then it was evident, that say perhaps the guitarist, did not really know what Dm was. In fact all you got was, "Oh, I just play by ear." And then you realize he just ain't cuttin' it. Would that hack you off?
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Yes. I wouldn't jam with that player anymore. I'm not a teacher. So I'm not going to waste my time jamming with someone who doesn't know what the key of D minor is.
 
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#132
I quit a band a few years ago where the guitarist was one of those guys that didn't know what Dm was, but that's not why I quit. I quit because he didn't even want to be shown what Dm is. We were covering an old David Bowie song that he was playing incorrectly. I quietly pointed it out to him and even played the song a few times after rehearsal so he could hear the difference between the recording and what he was playing. He told me I was wrong because I'm not a guitar player. I said while it's true I don't play much guitar, I do know how chords work and that he was close, but not quite there with that song. I even got our sound guy, who just happened to be a fantastic guitarist, to politely show him the proper way to play the song. He couldn't be bothered. He figured no one would notice and that it was "close enough". I can play with players at just about any level of proficiency IF they're willing to be open minded. I learned and still learn from playing with musicians who are better than I am. Some players get all insulted and butt hurt if you make suggestions that could help them along. As long as the person offering constructive criticism isn't being a jerk about it, I'm not sure how anyone wouldn't want to use it as an opportunity to improve.
 
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#133
I haven't been through the whole thread but I want to point out that in my experience, rhythm and timing are of utmost importance. If a guitarist can't figure out that complex chord, they can often cover it very well by playing an approximation and pulling out any bits that clash. If they do it in time, it becomes part of the rhythm of a song anyway.

If someone's timing is all over the place, ain't nothin' gonna fix that or cover it up even if the notes are right.
 
#134
@Mike Sorr I agree. That's why I have seen to that I am just as proficient on bass, that I am on guitar, and keys. But I never had that much problems with keyboard players, as opposed to gtrds, who are just piss marking territory. I can even show drummers something. It's all about that: That they are not willing to neither learn nor listen. I wonder if they don't listen to someone else when advicing constructive critisism, I wonder how they can listen to other musicians in the band while playing at all?

Those gtrds have problems when they encounter multiinstrumentalists. That are even better than they themselves are.

Me myself never ever had problems with this "stay on your on turf" since I can play a plethora of instruments and decent enough to get a call to sub for basically any "basic" cover band on a) bass b) guitar c) keys. I can just get a drop in sub call the same evening without having to pre-rehearse. Of course, if it's original material then you have to work at it with the band. I sure couldn't do that way back, but if you're spending your day at each instrument then you get the hang of it all eventually.

One thing: I have never ever played for someone else in the band. I mean, to impress band members. I have not ever played to impress other musicians in the audience. The one that steers the direction or what it takes is the music. The score, the song is the "BL" so to speak. I don't get impressed by others in my own band, because I knew them before and knew for sure what they're all about. I USED TO though, but it was way way back. I had some problems with a guitarist, and the problem was all mine. He was very very good, educated jazz player and played in the John McLaughlin vein, up to speed, and knew tricky chords, fusion type of guy, but none of the bad habits gtrds usually had. In jazz, you're supposed to listen very closely to the other players, while at the same time focus on your own playing and play responsevly to the others, however, I listened too hard to him - like I was sitting in the audience - and got impressed occasionally so much that I lost my own playing, and was totally out... like ... I stopped just because I wanted to listen to him only. Then I instantly knew that the song came to a halt, and everybody laughed. Since then, no virtuosity impresses me anymore, and I have got numbed and try myself to hang along and listen to the music only and response to that with my playing only... when someone else solos/improvises and plays "out" you really have to stay in the pocket so you don't loose track. Someone has to be holding down the groove for others to surf on top on.
 
#135
Reminds me of one thing: Players above my level, will definitely not like to play with me. It's a rare find, and fine line to find musicians that are just slightly above your level so you can improve, but the others will cope with it. I e that your level of skill isn't dragging the band back too far down in standards. It's a fine line, and hard find. If you always kept the notion that "you should always play with musicians better than you are" then no one would play with anyone, because no one will play with people that has lower skills. Catch 22 of some sorts... ;)
 
#136
One of my highest standards for practice and jams is not wasting time. I have to travel a minimum of 50 miles to practice or jam and it really irks me to travel that far and waste a lot of time. I'm retired, but my time is still worth something to me. Not to mention burning gas in my F-250 to get there and get home.
 
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#137
I'm never the most talented guy in the room, and occasionally I may not be the least practiced. So, with that in mind, for a jam type situation, I'll play just to play. I can usually lock in with the drummer unless he has no sense of time or groove, in which case I'll play off the rhythm of the guitar and hope the drummer locks into that. Either way, I'm there for a good time and I'll find it.

If it's a band situation and we are gonna jam some songs, I expect everyone to know at least the basic changes and beat.

Funny though, how cover tune discussions always seem to go:

Who knows how to play song x, guitarist doesn't so it's out. How about song y, nope drummer and singer don't know it. How about song z, bassist doesn't know it, so what he can just play the roots, okay we have a winner, learn it by showtime tonite.
 
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#138
MEKer said:
Oh, I am not speaking of expectations. Nor am I speaking of formed bands, which obviously you don't want to be in unless there is instrument/musical competence involved (besides other obvious interaction aspects).

I speaking of when you simply want to play (not in a band setting). Will you do it if the other(s) have little notion of even the names of their notes? Will you do it if incompetence gets to be tiresome or would you play anyhow just to play?
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NO !!!!
 
#139
MEKer said:
Oh, I am not speaking of expectations. Nor am I speaking of formed bands, which obviously you don't want to be in unless there is instrument/musical competence involved (besides other obvious interaction aspects).

I speaking of when you simply want to play (not in a band setting). Will you do it if the other(s) have little notion of even the names of their notes? Will you do it if incompetence gets to be tiresome or would you play anyhow just to play?
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No.

I play regularly in two bands, and semi-regularly in another. I don't need to play just to play. I won't waste time playing with someone who doesn't even know how to play their own instrument. I don't expect anyone to be a virtuoso, but I do expect them to at least know their way around their own instrument and enough note and chord names that I don't have to specify exactly what frets they should put each finger on. I'm not that great myself, but there's a basic level everyone needs to at least be at for playing to be any fun for me.
 
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