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How is Cliff Burton overrated?

#103
funkytoe said:
These threads seem to pop up every few months and the arguments just get recycled again and again.

I suppose in some way that is a tribute to Cliff and part of his legacy - the continuing interest and the controversy. But, its hard for me to stay silent...

I knew Cliff. The first bass I ever played was Cliff's Ric. He put it in my hands and told me to jam away. He was an extremely humble, fun-loving guy who LOVED to drink beer and play bass.

The stuff that makes me mad.

Questions about whether he wrote his own parts or contributed to the early albums. Let me tell you once and for all -- he did. Cliff was the most musically educated of the original members. He had the best knowledge of theory and harmony and melody of any of the band members. James and Kirk will tell you how much Cliff taught them. In fact, they have said as much in countless interviews. Enough. Cliff was a fantastic composer for the metal genre. Maybe its best. He married his love of Bach and classical music with the explosive energy of Marshall Amps and 10,000 watts and created what Metallica is known for. Anyone remember the S&M album? Symphony and Metallica. Why do you think the San Francisco Symphony spent weeks of rehearsals and countless hours to perform (and record) Metallica songs with a full symphony? Metallica did not ask them to do it. The Symphony (and Michael Kamen) approached Metallica. How many other bands can make that claim. Yes, Cliff was a great writer/arranger.

"Cliff's playing is sloppy." This bugs me too. Cliff's playing is sloppy because that was his style. He loved the punk ethic. He loved the Misfits and the Ramones. He married that punk energy into his very intricate playing to create this bombastic sound. No one played like that before Cliff. Not Entwistle. Not Geezer. Not Harris. No-one.

"I can't hear Cliff's notes." So what? The clip above was recorded at the Day on the Green at the Oakland Coliseum. I was there. Yes, the sound sucked. But when was the last time you played in an open air stadium in front of 20,000 people? It does not sound like it does in your bedroom.

Also, Cliff used Fuzz and Wah as part of his musical voice. Think of Hendrix banging his Stat into his Marshall stack to achieve feedback. Is it noise? Yes -- at least that's how many will see it. Can you hear every "note" Hendrix plays? No. Maybe pitch but not a "note." You can pick it apart if you want, but many others just get it. They feel it.

Thirty years later kids are still choosing to play bass in their high school metal bands because Cliff made it cool. I have no doubt that Cliff would have created so much more music if he were alive today. And it would be cool. Cliff just had a timeless cool. Kind of like Lou Reed.

I started this rant by talking about the Cliff I knew. I used the word "humble" - which he was. If Cliff were typing this, he would be the first to concede that Stanley Clarke and Jaco and a hundred other bass players could play circles around him. He would not compare himself or even pretend that he had a dog in that fight. But that was also Cliff. No ego. No pretense. He did what he liked and liked what he did.

Cliff was a iconic figure in the history of electric bass. Not because he died young. Screw that argument once and for all. Cliff was a pioneer. His punk/metal in-your-face bass playing brought bass to the forefront of the emerging metal scene. Cliff made people ask "what's the name of that bass player?" Cliff is why thousands of angry, isolated teen age boys take up the bass guitar every year. His playing is powerful and cool and those teens want that. Cliff is not going anywhere. Underrated/Overrated -- its just a lot of unnecessary opinion. Kids will still be talking about Cliff and trying to play his riffs long after I am dead and in the ground. He is immortal in that regard. And that's why you all still read these threads and post in them every few months.
Click to expand...

I know I'm late to the dance on this one, but in a moment of boredome I was curious enough to read this thread.

Put my vote in for the best TB post of the year as well.
 
#107
Cliff played in the biggest metal band on earth on the most universally appreciated albums of their discography. His bass playing skills aside, that by itself is plenty fuel to generate fanboys and inspire people to play bass.

Who the **** cares if he's sloppy. That's merely the human element in listening to music. When things are perfectly timed to a metronome it sounds robotic and fake.


Personally Cliff never really inspired me much. Sure Orion was cool but I didn't think of it as cool from a bass point of view. Just in general. I liked it as much as I liked other metal instrumentals from that time like Inquisition Symphony or Call of Ktulu.

You want to talk about a metal bassist that I ****ing noticed right off the bat? Steve Harris.

Cliff was often buried in the mix. Not Steve.
 
#109
Actium said:
When things are perfectly timed to a metronome it sounds robotic and fake.
You want to talk about a metal bassist that I ****ing noticed right off the bat? Steve Harris.

Cliff was often buried in the mix. Not Steve.
Click to expand...

I have never really understood the "ignore metronomes because you'll sound robotic argument". I meet a million metal head students who can't play with a metronome to save their lives. I can get my Korg XL microsynth to do some amazing things with the appegiator which is right with an internal click.

Some of the BEST bass players play with a click religiously. I do all the time and I can easily tell when a band speeds up or slows down too much pretty quickly. I have met drummers who don't do practice to one and they lose the click and or feel consistently when switching to a ride or playing something too fast or slow for their comfort zone. It shouldn't ever sound "robotic" yet still be in time and have that "it" factor. That's the trick to near perfect time and the best rhythm sections have it because of religious play time with clicks and metronomes.

Why do chicks still dance to dance music? It's soooo robotic. really?

I agree though on this: Steve Harris is 10 times the metal player Cliff was.
 
#110
sethlow3 said:
He was sloppy. Some of his "masterpieces" like anesthesia (pulling teeth), just sound like a lower stringed guitar with way too much fuzz. I like what he brought to Metallica, but he was hardly a rock groove God like Flea or Geddy Lee is.
Click to expand...

I always hear this crap about it being "lower guitar," and never get it. A bass doesn't become a guitar just because you use effects. What a snooty attitude.
 
#111
funkytoe said:
These threads seem to pop up every few months and the arguments just get recycled again and again.

I suppose in some way that is a tribute to Cliff and part of his legacy - the continuing interest and the controversy. But, its hard for me to stay silent...

I knew Cliff. The first bass I ever played was Cliff's Ric. He put it in my hands and told me to jam away. He was an extremely humble, fun-loving guy who LOVED to drink beer and play bass.

The stuff that makes me mad.

Questions about whether he wrote his own parts or contributed to the early albums. Let me tell you once and for all -- he did. Cliff was the most musically educated of the original members. He had the best knowledge of theory and harmony and melody of any of the band members. James and Kirk will tell you how much Cliff taught them. In fact, they have said as much in countless interviews. Enough. Cliff was a fantastic composer for the metal genre. Maybe its best. He married his love of Bach and classical music with the explosive energy of Marshall Amps and 10,000 watts and created what Metallica is known for. Anyone remember the S&M album? Symphony and Metallica. Why do you think the San Francisco Symphony spent weeks of rehearsals and countless hours to perform (and record) Metallica songs with a full symphony? Metallica did not ask them to do it. The Symphony (and Michael Kamen) approached Metallica. How many other bands can make that claim. Yes, Cliff was a great writer/arranger.

"Cliff's playing is sloppy." This bugs me too. Cliff's playing is sloppy because that was his style. He loved the punk ethic. He loved the Misfits and the Ramones. He married that punk energy into his very intricate playing to create this bombastic sound. No one played like that before Cliff. Not Entwistle. Not Geezer. Not Harris. No-one.

"I can't hear Cliff's notes." So what? The clip above was recorded at the Day on the Green at the Oakland Coliseum. I was there. Yes, the sound sucked. But when was the last time you played in an open air stadium in front of 20,000 people? It does not sound like it does in your bedroom.

Also, Cliff used Fuzz and Wah as part of his musical voice. Think of Hendrix banging his Stat into his Marshall stack to achieve feedback. Is it noise? Yes -- at least that's how many will see it. Can you hear every "note" Hendrix plays? No. Maybe pitch but not a "note." You can pick it apart if you want, but many others just get it. They feel it.

Thirty years later kids are still choosing to play bass in their high school metal bands because Cliff made it cool. I have no doubt that Cliff would have created so much more music if he were alive today. And it would be cool. Cliff just had a timeless cool. Kind of like Lou Reed.

I started this rant by talking about the Cliff I knew. I used the word "humble" - which he was. If Cliff were typing this, he would be the first to concede that Stanley Clarke and Jaco and a hundred other bass players could play circles around him. He would not compare himself or even pretend that he had a dog in that fight. But that was also Cliff. No ego. No pretense. He did what he liked and liked what he did.

Cliff was a iconic figure in the history of electric bass. Not because he died young. Screw that argument once and for all. Cliff was a pioneer. His punk/metal in-your-face bass playing brought bass to the forefront of the emerging metal scene. Cliff made people ask "what's the name of that bass player?" Cliff is why thousands of angry, isolated teen age boys take up the bass guitar every year. His playing is powerful and cool and those teens want that. Cliff is not going anywhere. Underrated/Overrated -- its just a lot of unnecessary opinion. Kids will still be talking about Cliff and trying to play his riffs long after I am dead and in the ground. He is immortal in that regard. And that's why you all still read these threads and post in them every few months.
Click to expand...

Quoting this again for truth.
 
#113
Well yeah, I know it's been said before, but just to reiterate- It's based on opinion. Our opinions differ. I don't really like Metallica but I respect Cliff as a play both because of his songwriting influence and legacy. Maybe he's not the best ever, but he was still pretty decent, considering that he had to play with their drummer. At the end of the day, these threads are going to be a discussion between the people that really like the player and the people who consider them overrated.
 
#114
sethlow3 said:
It's just an opinion. Many others obviously hold that opinion too. So it must at least be a valid perception/common opinion.
Click to expand...

I don't see how something becomes a guitar just by playing with distortion. Or becomes a guitar by taking a solo.

You know, there are classical bass solos, too. Do those who play them suddenly become guitarists?

Distortion is no more inherent to guitar than it is to bass. It is only usually associated more with guitar by convention.

I'm not trying to say Burton was the best bassist ever, or anything so silly as that (the phrase itself is rather ridiculous, IMO... there is no best when it comes to music), but to say he was crap or whatever I think is pretty ludicrous.
 
#115
Emilym80 said:
Well yeah, I know it's been said before, but just to reiterate- It's based on opinion. Our opinions differ. I don't really like Metallica but I respect Cliff as a play both because of his songwriting influence and legacy. Maybe he's not the best ever, but he was still pretty decent, considering that he had to play with their drummer. At the end of the day, these threads are going to be a discussion between the people that really like the player and the people who consider them overrated.
Click to expand...

Yeah, my respect for Burton is more due to his songwriting and influence on the band's direction than for his bass playing, though lots of his lines were very cool.
 
#119
I mean, there's no innate reason why guitar should be distorted and bass shouldn't, it's just more traditional (conventions set within the last 50 years) for it to be. Before that, neither one of them was.

There are no hard and fast rules about how one must play an instrument, beyond trying to use techniques that won't result in injury.
 
#120
Datsgor said:
Metallicas' ability to put out music that wasn't crap is a direct result of Cliff being alive. After he died, well....And Justice for All....Load, Re-load? Come on, Cliff made that band great.
Click to expand...

+1 It's my understanding that he had the most music theory training of any of the members. He was too low in the mix and it was hard for me to hear what he was doing after being buried under all the guitar tracks. Too bad he wasn't around to see the success he helped create.
 

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