How is Ishibashi?

[dabluesman]

about a month ago i noticed a great looking five string jazz at ishibashi so I emailed them about it. they told me the neck was warped. so at least they are honest and respectible.
my most recent purchase from japan was on ebay by jo's music shop. he has brand spanking new mij fenders and ships them very fast to the us.
my first order from japan was several years ago back when the us dollar was worth much more, and due to currency conversion the prices were wonderfully cheap. however that is not how it is anymore. still a great price but not a "steal" like it used to be.

 

[Dee_01]

The dealers did not make that decision that's true but calling Fender's MIA products mediocre and claiming their is a conspiracy to not bring MIJ to America is crazy. Fender sells MIJ in America right now so clearly they have no problem with selling it here. Most of the stuff available in Japan is color variants and such. I also would take a MIA Fender over a MIJ one any day of the week.

Most people would probably rather have USA Fenders, but it's a matter of price. Not all of us have money growing on the trees in our back garden.

 

[Dan B]

Another question about Ikebe and Ishibashi.

Is it possible to buy a Tune there? Ikebe has a white one that is absolutely stunning.

 

[dabber]

I purchased a USED (06?) MIJ 75RI-US (US p/u's) Natural/Maple/MOP blocks/white binding last October while on vacation at the Tokyo/East Shinjuku Ishi. We found the bass I wanted and needed them to hold it for awhile, couldn't take it with me for a 4day side trip to Kyoto/Koyasan, our salesperson spoke enough English for us to get by and luckily we met an English speaking local/customer who helped with the arrangments. They held the bass and had it ready to go when I returned. As far as I know, you can buy Used or New MIC/CIJ if you are there but they won't ship MIJ/CIJ unless used or one of the signature models offered in the USA by Fender (Geddy/Marcus/Sting). I'll post a pic later. That's my favorite souvenier from the trip. Highly recommend them. I did go thru the music store district Ochanomizu (sp?) and found a killer '62RI Turqoise/tort but the 75RI was the winner hands down. Something interesting, all of the stores I visited (except for Ishi or Ikebe in Shibuya) had the truss rods backed off on every instrument and most were 'chained' with security locks. Only took a few extra minutes to tweak it but I found that odd...
At approximately $650, there is NO way I can complain about the price and aside from the tuners(not the best/not the worst), it's pretty comparable to a $2k+ USA 75RI, and yes I have played enough of them to give a fair comparison.

 

[Johnny Alien]

Most people would probably rather have USA Fenders, but it's a matter of price. Not all of us have money growing on the trees in our back garden.

Sure and that is understandable but his quote was that US instruments were "mediocre" Then in the second post he says he knows nothing about the US models. (Unless I am reading this wrong).

Many companies have policy restrictions on what countries their instruments can be sold in or exported to/from. I do not think it is a conspiracy because the MIJ instruments are that much better. A MIJ Geddy Lee is over $1000 now isn't it? If they started allowing importing the prices would not be that much lower. Many of the higher end MIJ models run you about $900 and then tack on $100 shipping on top of that. There are quite a few MIJ models available in the US and on top of that Fender has tons of foreign made (MIM mainly) instruments available in the US. They are not scared of taking away US sales in fact most of these companies have multiple lines so that they can take money from the most people possible. Otherwise there would be no MIM line at all. Do you think Music Man is worried about stealing US sales by introducing their Sterling line or do you think they will actually make MORE sales from those that can't afford the US line.

I realize that Fender cracked down on Ishibashi but I just don't believe it's because of US competition.

 

[4-Stringer]

can't believe that. Why don't you just READ again?

I don't know anything about the situation in the USA (bcs. I'm located in Europe).
I don't know what quality of MIA Fender ships to Europe (maybe the top quality stuff stays in the USA, no idea), I don't know your prices.
I'm talking about another continent, ya know?

Shopping in Japan is still cheap for us (as it is in the US since the USD lost it's value).
MIA is way to expensive here and MIM about the same price as CIJ, but the latter were always of fine quality, MIM are (to often) not.
I've seen a lot of MIA stuff here that was really not worth the money dealers demanded for it. But MIA PUs and tuners are usually better than CIJ, no doubt about that.

Of course people noticed that, tried to get CIJ directly from Japan and Fender put pressure on the big japanese dealers to stop selling to customers outside Japan.

Hope it's clear now

 

[Johnny Alien]

A MIJ 57 reissue with US electronics which I feel is comparable to the classic MIM series would cost $900 to have shipped to the US from Ishibashi. Not bad but certainly not such a deal that it would eat up US sales especially considering the price of used US vintage series and the MIM classic line.

Secondly you have no idea why Fender stopped Ishinashi or if it was FMIC at all. Since Fender Japan is a joint venture of FMIC and some Japanese distributors is is just as likely that those Japanese companies did not want their product sold in other territories. On top of that you are making the assumption that MIJ is soooo good and sooo affordable that it was effecting MIM and MIA sales which I highly doubt. While the product is decent my guess is that only the guitar geekiest of internet people were buying from Ishibashi and the normal consumer shops MF or GC. There was no way that Ishibashi sales were even a fraction of what Fender sold through MF.

If you think MIJ is better than the MIA Fenders that is fine but I am just saying it's wrong to go around saying that you have knowledge of why Ishibashi was forced to stop shipping them.

Admittedly I have no real knowledge either.

 

[4-Stringer]

okay, we won't reach anything here, but once again: Please read what I wrote!
Some guitar shops started to sell self-imported CIJ instruments, stopping to buy from the official Fender distributors. Not every country in Europe has 250 million residents. It DOES make a difference for local Fender distributors if they sell xx% less.
In some bigger European forums long threads regarding "how to import from Japan" were running, I shared my information with at least 40-50 people and most of them actually bought from Ishibashi.

As I already told you, I've got my information from an insider. If you don't believe that, you don't believe that. It's that easy......

 

[Johnny Alien]

No I don't believe you know anyone at FMIC that has insider information to this....sorry.

You may know a dealer that has an "opinion". I know alot of those too.

FMIC makes a profit on every single instrument that Fender Japans sells. That means everyone that one of your friends import Fender makes a profit on. They are not worried about loosing sales to themselves.

Fender Japan is a joint venture between FMIC and two Japanese distributors. I believe one is called Kanda or something like that and I believe they own or partially own Ishibashi. There is an arrangement and always has been that protects dealerships in different territories by not allowing exporting. Again this has been in place forever (from what I understand) and Ishibashi was violating the agreement and got forced to start following it.

I have never read anywhere that this was enforced by FMIC or the Japanese distributors my guess is that it was a joint decision thing.

Music Man and Rickenbacker have similar agreements that do not allow US stores to sell outside the US to protect European and Japanese distributors.

 

[4-Stringer]

I give up. You either don't read or don't understand, sorry.
You seem to ignore the Europe-thing, I've never talked about Fender USA or Japan, the point is the competition from direct imports of CIJ to Europe the local distributors wanted to stop. That is, btw. the same reason why Rickenbacker does not allow exports to Europe for their US dealers. Mr. Hall made this point pretty clear in the past.

 

[Johnny Alien]

I've never talked about Fender USA or Japan

Was this not a discussion about MIJ Fenders from Ishibashi? Is not Fender USA (FMIC) the parent company? Did you not say that US Fenders were mediocre and that the exporting/buying of MIJ Fender directly from Japan was hurting the US Fender sales?

 

[4-Stringer]

Was this not a discussion about MIJ Fenders from Ishibashi? Is not Fender USA (FMIC) the parent company? Did you not say that US Fenders were mediocre and that the exporting/buying of MIJ Fender directly from Japan was hurting the US Fender sales?

Yes/Yes/Partly.

Dear Sir,

this is my last answer for you. I don't understand what exactly your intention is. You're interpreting what I wrote to have it fit into the prejudices you obviously have. It is certainly not my intention to insult you in any way, but what I wrote in this thread seems to be absolutely clear. Not for you, for whatever reason.

First of all: You know what Europe is, don't you? It is not part of the United States, not even of the Americas and, believe it or not, they use languages other than English!

You know what mediocre means? Something can be mediocre compared to other, similar things (which are better) or it can become mediocre because of the relation between price and quality. Even something of good quality can become mediocre if the price is to high, especially when compared to other (similar) available goods which have better quality for the same price. If you steal a new MIA bass, it is perfect for the "price" you paid. If you pay 25000 USD for it, it is absolutely mediocre. Agreed?

If you ever visit Europe (after you found out where that is), go to a guitar store and be surprised what dealers charge their customers for Fender instruments. MIM is expensive, MIA is ridiculous. This does not mean that the quality of MIA or MIM is generally low or whatever, but see above.

Still on track? Ok.

People found out that they can have Fender of good quality if the use/buy CIJ. At least equal to MIM, often even to MIA. This made MIM and MIA mediocre (see definition above).
Now customers wanted to have CIJ and ignored MIM/MIA. Read all about that in my older posts in this thread, I'm to lazy to repeat it again. Even dealers jumped on that train. I've got a large guitar store in town, to owner told me that they made over 80% of their turnover with Fender instruments with self imported CIJ.

Local, offical distributors (Europe is not a country, you know? It's a continent. Pretty large thing, such a continent. Maaaaaany countries there!) started to complain about that situation. The source for CIJ was closed then. I know why. You don't believe me, but hey: I don't give a ......

I you can't agree to what I wrote or think I'm a liar (that's what you basically wrote earlier in this thread) or that I'm a <insert your favorite swearword>, I suggest to put me on your ignore list. I can't see a way to discuss with you any further.

Best regards,
4-Stringer

 

[choo5]

shipping to the US?

yes, he wanted a brand new fender jazz, they refused stating they won't ship new ones outside japan these days.

 

[mndean]

You know what mediocre means? Something can be mediocre compared to other, similar things (which are better) or it can become mediocre because of the relation between price and quality. Even something of good quality can become mediocre if the price is to high, especially when compared to other (similar) available goods which have better quality for the same price. If you steal a new MIA bass, it is perfect for the "price" you paid. If you pay 25000 USD for it, it is absolutely mediocre. Agreed?

I think you mean that those Fenders are a mediocre value (or worse, I can't imaging paying $25000 for a new MIA Fender), and that the CIJ Fenders are much better, because they give you MIA (or near-MIA) quality for a lower price. I understood what you meant, and I was wondering why people weren't understanding that you were from Europe.

 

[Johnny Alien]

Yes/Yes/Partly.

Dear Sir,

this is my last answer for you. I don't understand what exactly your intention is. You're interpreting what I wrote to have it fit into the prejudices you obviously have. It is certainly not my intention to insult you in any way, but what I wrote in this thread seems to be absolutely clear. Not for you, for whatever reason.

First of all: You know what Europe is, don't you? It is not part of the United States, not even of the Americas and, believe it or not, they use languages other than English!

You know what mediocre means? Something can be mediocre compared to other, similar things (which are better) or it can become mediocre because of the relation between price and quality. Even something of good quality can become mediocre if the price is to high, especially when compared to other (similar) available goods which have better quality for the same price. If you steal a new MIA bass, it is perfect for the "price" you paid. If you pay 25000 USD for it, it is absolutely mediocre. Agreed?

If you ever visit Europe (after you found out where that is), go to a guitar store and be surprised what dealers charge their customers for Fender instruments. MIM is expensive, MIA is ridiculous. This does not mean that the quality of MIA or MIM is generally low or whatever, but see above.

Still on track? Ok.

People found out that they can have Fender of good quality if the use/buy CIJ. At least equal to MIM, often even to MIA. This made MIM and MIA mediocre (see definition above).
Now customers wanted to have CIJ and ignored MIM/MIA. Read all about that in my older posts in this thread, I'm to lazy to repeat it again. Even dealers jumped on that train. I've got a large guitar store in town, to owner told me that they made over 80% of their turnover with Fender instruments with self imported CIJ.

Local, offical distributors (Europe is not a country, you know? It's a continent. Pretty large thing, such a continent. Maaaaaany countries there!) started to complain about that situation. The source for CIJ was closed then. I know why. You don't believe me, but hey: I don't give a ......

I you can't agree to what I wrote or think I'm a liar (that's what you basically wrote earlier in this thread) or that I'm a <insert your favorite swearword>, I suggest to put me on your ignore list. I can't see a way to discuss with you any further.

Best regards,
4-Stringer

Dude I understand alot and at least I never talked to you like a child. Chalk one up to you being a stellar human.

Companies have agreements on exporting instruments to protect dealer in different continents (like Europe...hooray....and Asia) and countries. Ric has them and Music Man has them. Also Fender has them.

They are not there to keep the cheaper/better value instruments out of your hands. Fender makes money from you no matter what you buy like I said earlier.

Ishibashi and a few others broke the agreement and got forced to follow it. That is all we know. We have no idea if it was FMIC or one of the Japanese distributors that did it.

That is my point. Take it for what it's worth but I doubt that your local Fender dealer has anything but an"opinion" on the matter and it's probably skewed because they got stopped from importing Japanese Fenders.

 

[Johnny Alien]

I think you mean that those Fenders are a mediocre value (or worse, I can't imaging paying $25000 for a new MIA Fender), and that the CIJ Fenders are much better, because they give you MIA (or near-MIA) quality for a lower price. I understood what you meant, and I was wondering why people weren't understanding that you were from Europe.

I understand he is from Europe. I also do not need to be made to understand what he means by mediocre. He implied in his first statement that Fender stopped Ishibashi specifically to keep MIJ instruments out of the hands of people outside of Japan and instead sell MIA and MIM instruments. There is truth in that but I was pointing out that regardless of the country/continent you live in that Fender makes a percentage on every Fender you buy..MIJ included. They have these rules to protect dealers in those continents from competition from other dealers from other territories. What Ishibashi was doing (and the store that he was discussing that sold tons of imported stock) was breaking those agreements. The agreements were most likely made not by FMIC by themselves but also the Japanese distributors that partially own Fender Japan.

 

[mndean]

Let's not talk of things we aren't intimately familiar with. Since none here know internal Fender policy, we can't really state anything except that it seems to be difficult if not impossible to get a new CIJ Fender out of Japan. Why is another matter. As for agreements, let's leave that alone until we see one. I've bought Japan-market-only items from Japanese dealers who seem quite glad to sell to me in the US, agreements or no. Usually attempting to limit competition artificially (embargoes, etc.) makes people find clever ways to skirt those limits.

 

[4-Stringer]

I think you mean that those Fenders are a mediocre value (or worse, I can't imaging paying $25000 for a new MIA Fender), and that the CIJ Fenders are much better, because they give you MIA (or near-MIA) quality for a lower price. I understood what you meant, and I was wondering why people weren't understanding that you were from Europe.

exactly.
It is the same situation for cars. If you want to buy a Ford Mustang (a new one, not a classic), the price for example in Germany is around 60000 USD. Imagine that! I mean, it's a pretty cool car, but for 60k$ its crap.
It is cheaper to buy a new Porsche in the USA and re-import it to Europe than to buy it in the country it's made.

Many manufacturers forbid their authorized dealers to sell cars cross border. Where is the point when the same car costs 20% less when you drive 50km across the border into another country? There is no situation like that in the USA, therefore the rules in Europe are totally different. It's important to keep that in mind when doing comparisons.

It's all and only about protecting artificial price structures. Globalization means for them "build it cheap, sell it expensive". On the same time, they want to deny customers to do the same, only the other way round.

That's the reason why Fender and, for example, Rickenbacker forces dealers not export their instruments. Who would pay 2500 USD for a Ric in Europe when he can get one for 1500 USD from the USA? Fender blocked the source for CIJ imported from Japan for this and no other reason.

 

[on1ne]

I bought my lefty CIJ RI 57P from Ishihashi in late 2004 because I could not get anything like it here in the US. Fender USA falls way short in offering left handed models. By comparison Fender Japan always has a good selection of lefty guitars and bass models available.

In fact I was reluctant to order from overseas, worried that any problem in the process could become a major headache. I would have gladly bought the same bass thru Fender USA at a higher price for whatever it would have cost them to import it and still make a profit. Why they don't do this with the Japan lefty models is beyond me.

As it turned out, the transaction with Ishibashi was first class in every respect. They were prompt to communicate and even informed me that there was a delay so they could replace the bass they were about to ship because it had a flaw in the finish. This so-called delay was a matter of 24 hours and my bass arrived 6 days after I placed the order!

Everyone knows that the Japan Fender models are excellent instruments. I don't know enough about all the US and MIM models to make a fair comparison but I do know that my CIJ P is a great playing bass and I'm extremely happy with it.

 

[Johnny Alien]

exactly.
It is the same situation for cars. If you want to buy a Ford Mustang (a new one, not a classic), the price for example in Germany is around 60000 USD. Imagine that! I mean, it's a pretty cool car, but for 60k$ its crap.
It is cheaper to buy a new Porsche in the USA and re-import it to Europe than to buy it in the country it's made.

Many manufacturers forbid their authorized dealers to sell cars cross border. Where is the point when the same car costs 20% less when you drive 50km across the border into another country? There is no situation like that in the USA, therefore the rules in Europe are totally different. It's important to keep that in mind when doing comparisons.

It's all and only about protecting artificial price structures. Globalization means for them "build it cheap, sell it expensive". On the same time, they want to deny customers to do the same, only the other way round.

That's the reason why Fender and, for example, Rickenbacker forces dealers not export their instruments. Who would pay 2500 USD for a Ric in Europe when he can get one for 1500 USD from the USA? Fender blocked the source for CIJ imported from Japan for this and no other reason.

There is alot of what you are saying that is the truth. That is EXACTLY what the agreements that MM, Ric and Fender make with dealers is there for but not to screw the customer to protect the dealers. If your store in Germany sells Fenders for XXX amount and it's high and there are no restrictions then you will order from America or Japan or wherever in order to get that product cheaper. So those companies restrict what companies can do so that your local dealers will not go out of business/will still be able to carry and sell Fenders (essentially because you have no other options). I know it feels like they are screwing you but in essence it is to protect the German dealers who would not be able to sell a product if you could just get it cheaper elsewhere outside of your country.

Your last statement is pure speculation into the fact that it was Fender who made this decision to stop Fender Japan and it also makes it sound like they just came up with the terms. It had been in place and Ishibashi was violation them. Unless you have a friend in FMIC or one of the Japanese distributors you have no real knowledge that it was 100% Fender that made that call.