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How loud is 25 tube watts?

alfaBAT9

alfaBAT9

Apr 12, 2009
145
2
Toronto, ON
#1
So I'm sure like many of us here, I started off playing bass with a SS amp, and then progressed to a hybrid, and now I think I'm ready to try my hand at the full tube thing. I'm excited to finally make this move! I've wanted to for a while but never had the coin.

There's no way in hell I'm lugging an SVT around due to spinal issues :spit:, so I'm planning on staying with the lighter options. I've been eyeing the Traynor YBA200-2 which is 200w at 41 lbs, not a bad price either and comes with a killer warranty. Though on the local classifieds there's a guy selling a '72 Traynor Bassmate with a matching cab for a nice price, but the amp is only 25 watts.

My question is.. how loud is 25 tube watts in a bass application? I'm vaguely aware of the tube watts vs. SS watts thing and how tube watts are supposedly louder, but how much louder? Will it sound like 30 watts? 40? 50? 100?
 
#2
A watt is a watt...... But it MAY sound a li'l louder- say like a 50-70w s.s. - really depends on WHAT spkr cab U R putting it thru. A YBA200-2 WILL rock tho- I got a YBA200 & my Ampegs are getting LITTLE use!!!! Practice amp only really- or recording!! Get the 200w & be done w/ it- U CAN turn 'em down. They STILL sound good quiet!!!
 
#3
all depends on the cab. through an 810 it'll get loud enough to hang with a medium volume rock band. through two 15's (which is what I usually use with it), it would struggle, but it's usually enough for my medium volume oldies rock band. i wouldn't recommend it for being your only amp, but it's not as quiet as some people think it is. i've carried a 700-800 seat theater with a b-15n and a single cab. i've not tried the traynor bassmate but a lot of folks really like the yba200 and i think you'd be better off with one before you buy a low wattage amp. it's better to have the higher power rig first. you can always turn it down if you don't need more power.
 
#4
Well, I have a 1964 Ampeg SB-12 fliptop, and it's 25 watts of all tube power. It sounds great in my studio, and I might be able to get away with it at a super small acoustic jazz club, but it's not very loud at all. And since the original speaker can't get very loud without farting out, I've tried the head with other cabs and the results have been just about the same, maybe a little louder. I'd say 25 tube watts, depending on the speaker(s) those watts are going through, could be equal to maybe 50-60 SS watts or somewhere around there....surely no SVT! If you really want that tube tone without the weight, check out the LMII/III....not tube at all but by far one of the warmest sounding SS heads I've ever played through....and it's 500 watts at 4 ohms!
 
#5
25 watts is loud for a guitar.
25 watts for a bass amp? Depends. As stated, you'll need a fantastic cab and if the amp has a tubed power supply it needs a huge transformer to keep it optimized to stay clean when dimed.

Those old Ampegs had massive output power supplies.
 
#7
alfaBAT9 said:
My question is.. how loud is 25 tube watts in a bass application? I'm vaguely aware of the tube watts vs. SS watts thing and how tube watts are supposedly louder, but how much louder? Will it sound like 30 watts? 40? 50? 100?
Click to expand...
Amp power and sound levels are not directly related. Jimmy's reply has got it right. A very large cab with a lot of drivers can get pretty loud with minimal power; a small single driver cab can go loud with plenty of power behind it, and a driver able to make use of it. Watts alone give no indication of how loud a rig can go.
 
#8
billfitzmaurice said:
Amp power and sound levels are not directly related. Jimmy's reply has got it right. A very large cab with a lot of drivers can get pretty loud with minimal power; a small single driver cab can go loud with plenty of power behind it, and a driver able to make use of it. Watts alone give no indication of how loud a rig can go.
Click to expand...

I might be wrong on this, but doesn't a rig's max loudness depend on (1) what the max SPL (sound pressure level) of the cab is (which will vary with the number, size and quality of the speakers) and (2) sufficient wattage in the amp to drive the cab to its max SPL?
 
#9
LOL, I understand what you all mean, but we've added a variant to the Tube watts vs SS watts debate.

So Guitar tube watts is Much louder than ss watts, but,
Bass tube watts are a little louder than ss watts.
 
#10
yamaha said:
LOL, I understand what you all mean, but we've added a variant to the Tube watts vs SS watts debate.

So Guitar tube watts is Much louder than ss watts, but,
Bass tube watts are a little louder than ss watts.
Click to expand...

No and no. Guitars need less power to sound loud because our hearing is more sensitive in that frequency range.
Watts are watts, tubes sound better over-driven and we perceive distortion as loudness.
 
#11
It was a Joke.

Actually, I think perception of loudness is not necessarily in the distortion, but in the richness of the sound. This would explain how a stereo sound sounds louder than dual mono. Yeah, aggressive mid voiced instruments do seem to be louder and cut better in the music too. And back to richness, bass already has a lot of richness due to the fact lower notes sound fuller than higher pitched notes. Play a low E by itself, and it sounds warm, resonates well, and has good sustain. Play a 4th octave E on a guitar, and it just sounds like one lonely guitar note.

So to me, most tube amps make sounds richer, fuller.
 
#12
Very interesting stuff. This probably explains why guitar players are able to gig with amps in the 30w range. Seems like there's no way a bass player could do that unless they had the right speaker setup and were okay with having zero headroom. Though it seems like a bass player could get away with playing a medium-large venue with a really small stage amp if it has a DI out and the sound man is good with mixing monitors.

I'll leave the Bassmate for someone else to grab. Looks like a trip to the store to check out the YBA200-2 is in my immediate (like today) future!
 
#13
yamaha said:
It was a Joke.

Actually, I think perception of loudness is not necessarily in the distortion, but in the richness of the sound. This would explain how a stereo sound sounds louder than dual mono. Yeah, aggressive mid voiced instruments do seem to be louder and cut better in the music too. And back to richness, bass already has a lot of richness due to the fact lower notes sound fuller than higher pitched notes. Play a low E by itself, and it sounds warm, resonates well, and has good sustain. Play a 4th octave E on a guitar, and it just sounds like one lonely guitar note.

So to me, most tube amps make sounds richer, fuller.
Click to expand...

You never know who is joking around here ;). Stereo sounds louder due to the different image at each ear, distorted sound will always sound louder than undistorted (till you try to talk over an undistorted sound). as far as tubes being richer in harmonics? My 800rb (all SS) sounded richer than my V4-B Ampeg (but not deeper), my Fusion (tube pre and class D output) richer than either by nearly 10 fold. :D
 
#14
B-string said:
...Guitars need less power to sound loud because our hearing is more sensitive in that frequency range...
Click to expand...

+1

Fletcher and Munson would agree!

Since guitar drivers need not deal with the lows bass delivers, designing guitar speakers that will be loud in the required frequency range is less difficult. Don't smaller magnets and voice coils present smaller loads and less cost? :D
 
#15
bassdoubler said:
Well, I have a 1964 Ampeg SB-12 fliptop, and it's 25 watts of all tube power. It sounds great in my studio, and I might be able to get away with it at a super small acoustic jazz club, but it's not very loud at all. And since the original speaker can't get very loud without farting out, I've tried the head with other cabs and the results have been just about the same, maybe a little louder...
Click to expand...

+1

My experience with early/mid-60's B-12s, B-15s, and a B-18 was all the same. If you are playing for a crowd of dancing people in a bar with a moderately loud drummer, a couple of guitarists with small amps, and a small portable P.A., you will not be heard. The sounds you will be making will not be appealing.

I know many here love these venerable little tube amps, and I respect that. I just don't find them useful, and I don't really need a speaker in the studio.

To the OP, can you elaborate more on the application for which you are considering a small tube amp? IME, the 200 watt Traynor kills with a good cab. BTW, few good cabs are much under 40 lbs. :D
 
#16
I've got a Bassmate of the same era. It's a great little amp and I love it for practicing at home, recording or playing with semi-acoustic bands. I wouldn't want to depend on it to carry my bass in a moderate electric rock band. It's still a cool little amp though.

KO
 
#17
Back in the days when Traynor was building the Basemate, marketing people had even less respect for RMS numbers than they do today. If you could get 15 undistorted watts out of a Bassmate, you'd be doing pretty good.

Volume-wise, a Bassmate isn't in the same class as an Ampeg fliptop, never mind anything bigger.

Besides, the whole "tube watts are bigger" thing relates to guitar more than bass, not just because of Fletcher-Munsen, but also because of the musical way tube amps compress at their limits, and guitar players' love of distortion.

Those guys love it when their amp is total saturation, with absolutely no headroom left.

But assuming that we're talking about clean, undistorted bass with some dynamic headroom, a bassist's tube vs solid-state wattage requirements are going much closer to equal, than they would be for a guitar player.
 
#18
If you like the SVT tone but you don't like the SVT weight, you might be interested in the B25B.

Its 55 watts. I play it through a 1x15 or a 2x15 cab. I play in a loud punk band most of the time. I'm up against a PA, a drum kit, and a pair of half stacks (Marshall and a Mesa Dual Rec) I've got no problem cutting through and being heard. Sometimes I'm too loud.
 
#19
GeneralElectric said:
If you like the SVT tone but you don't like the SVT weight, you might be interested in the B25B.

Its 55 watts. I play it through a 1x15 or a 2x15 cab. I play in a loud punk band most of the time. I'm up against a PA, a drum kit, and a pair of half stacks (Marshall and a Mesa Dual Rec) I've got no problem cutting through and being heard. Sometimes I'm too loud.
Click to expand...

How would you describe your gig locations and your cabs? :D
 
#20
Jim Carr said:
To the OP, can you elaborate more on the application for which you are considering a small tube amp? IME, the 200 watt Traynor kills with a good cab. BTW, few good cabs are much under 40 lbs. :D
Click to expand...

Stupidly I thought about using it in my 3-piece indie/pop/rock band. :hiding: Yeah, not thinking straight if I thought 25w could cut it against a Dave Grohl-esque drummer and a screaming Vox AC30 (with the Rat ALWAYS on). I'm definitely going to look into the YBA200-2, possibly with a Neo 4x10 or 2x12. Or 2 1x12's? Nah probably not. I really just want one good lightweight cab.
 

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