How many callback are acceptable?

[B-line]

This may mean they want to see if your vocals are still improving at the third call. It may be that you were weak at the first and better at the second. The drummer tipping you off (esp. if not your buddy) tells me none of the other vocalists are clear winners. Those vocal lessons might do the trick if you're putting them into practice.



I've been recruited by Google, Amazon, and Oracle (was not looking or interested). They all seem to do 3-4 rounds of phone interviews followed by 2-3 rounds of face-to-face for positions other than entry level. Maybe M$ is different.

MI is different, but the principle is the same. I don't know what you've been recruited for, if they recruited you, then why an interview, except to settle on Salary etc.? If a company is looking to fill a technical position, you're either qualified /experienced or not. It's a very specialized and compartmentalized World today. If you have the Degree, experience, and meet the qualifications, what else are they looking at? Your choice of neckties?

Music- My gigs, you need to read well. If you can't nail the arrangements, don't even bother to show. Then comes feel, then compatability.
One session is enough to find out if all that is happening.

 

[Koog]

Why do you have to be the one to say no? Hang in there, wait to see if they call, and in the meantime pursue other things. Learning their songs and hiring a vocal coach improved both your catalog and ability, so nothing is wasted. You still win.

If they ever call and want you, you can evaluate your response THEN based on your circumstance then. Who knows, you may work into a better situation with more time, experience, learning, et al....Maybe you won't need them and be able to kindly say, "Thanks for thinking of me, but I'm not interested because I'm really busy with other projects".

Never stop learning and improving.

Hope this helps.

Koog.

 

[B-line]

Ask your 'cellist friend how much prep she did for her auditions, how many people showed up to try for the job, and what the audition process was like. A major orchestra these days will announce a vacancy and invite "highly-qualified" applicants to audition in person after culling resumes and recorded submissions. There will be at least two rounds of solo performance behind a screen, usually starting with prepared pieces in several styles followed by excerpts from the entire repertoire of orchestral music, after which a lot of applicants will be eliminated. It can sometimes (as happened to two of my classmates from school who auditioned for the same gig) end with two finalists onstage at the same time alternately playing the same excerpts until the inevitable mistake happens, at which time a voice from the hall says, "thank you" and that's it. Sometimes as has happened recently with some principal bass auditions, an orchestra will go through the entire process and not take anyone.

6 Minutes To Shine

Wrong.

The process you describe is for "rookies" those with no prior professional symphony experience or credentials to offer, usually newly-minted Music School grads
In Charlene's case, she has been hired without audition 2X, as she knew and/or was recommended by other personnel connected with the Symphony. Her prior work and Resume spoke for itself.

Doubtful that any orchestra of note would not be able to fill the position of principle anything.

 

[pwhalen]

Yeah, this. It's not being butt hurt; it's a recognition that either I have failed to sufficiently impress them, or they don't really know what they want. Neither is good. After two auditions, you should have a pretty good idea what I'm about and whether or not it's a fit. (Because by then, I certainly do.)


Yep, see above. Any job that's required 3 or more rounds of interviews has rarely panned out (unless it was to have them call me later because the person they did hire didn't work out).

(True story: Once, during my going away lunch from one company, I got a call from another company that I'd interviewed with extensively but got no feedback. They wanted to know what I wanted for my login account password. It seems that they hired me, but never bothered to tell me! I'd since taken a different job.)

So if I had a position that paid 2 or 3x your current salary that seemed like a good enough fit to you that you applied for it, you would drop out if a third interview was required?

 

[pwhalen]

MI is different, but the principle is the same. I don't know what you've been recruited for, if they recruited you, then why an interview, except to settle on Salary etc.? If a company is looking to fill a technical position, you're either qualified /experienced or not. It's a very specialized and compartmentalized World today. If you have the Degree, experience, and meet the qualifications, what else are they looking at?

They might have several people who are also qualified and are looking for one who fits their culture. Or it may be a position where the president or CEO wants to sign off on the hire, but he's not going to waste time until it has been narrowed to a couple of people. It's much more common that you seem to believe.

 

[B-line]

So if I had a position that paid 2 or 3x your current salary that seemed like a good enough fit to you that you applied for it, you would drop out if a third interview was required?

"IF"


What is your point? To go back/forth?
That's a hypothetical that doesn't apply to the topic the OP asked for opinions on!

His (OP) salary was stated, he auditioned, they did not offer him a job, only the opportunity to come back a 2nd/3rd time. That's BS.

Now- to answer your question. A few years ago, I got a call from a drummer I had worked with. He was excited; he was offered a high-paying gig with a 70's-type cover band. They were also looking for a Bassist, and he was glad that we could be working together again; we had lots of fun.
I checked the Band out, Not Interested. The music (B-52's,etc) to me was lame. I play old/new school deep-pocket dance- your -azz off Funk and R&B, and some soulful ballads by artists like Etta James and Ann Peebles. The stuff that challenges ME and makes me happy. I love the Bar-Kays, and the Isleys, and James Brown, much more in that genre.

I told him "Thanks, but no thanks. even with (1) audition.

 

[B-line]

They might have several people who are also qualified and are looking for one who fits their culture. Or it may be a position where the president or CEO wants to sign off on the hire, but he's not going to waste time until it has been narrowed to a couple of people. It's much more common that you seem to believe.

Yeah, it may be. "Their Culture" My Bro-In-Law has turned down jobs because he thought the Companies were too "New-Age" for him (His term; not mine). He also didn't particularly care to work on Death-Bomb projects or the like.
I still maintain that if a high-tech company needs a slot filled, they don't have time to waste, and usually will hire the best person for that job.
If they want to narrow it down, maybe there can be a Talent Competition, or something.

But again- let's get back to topic- More than 2 auditions for a spot in a Corporate Band?? (again not a slam-my thing as well)
Ridonculous.

Who cares about the Corporate World anyway???? That's why I work my chops on the Bass Guitar.

 

[SAlcott]

Wrong.

The process you describe is for "rookies" those with no prior professional symphony experience or credentials to offer, usually newly-minted Music School grads
In Charlene's case, she has been hired without audition 2X, as she knew and/or was recommended by other personnel connected with the Symphony. Her prior work and Resume spoke for itself.

Doubtful that any orchestra of note would not be able to fill the position of principle anything.

Nope. Do a little research and see how long it's taken Detroit to hire a principal (correct spelling, BTW) bass. Regarding your friend's experience, I'm sure she's a fine player with a great resume, but major orchestras (NY Phil, Boston, Philadelphia, Chicago, Cleveland, LA, San Francisco, Baltimore, etc) simply do not hire anyone without blind auditions. Back to the original post, two or three callbacks for a serious working band is not a big deal, especially where vocals are a large part of the job.

 

[red_rhino]

After two auditions, you should have a pretty good idea what I'm about and whether or not it's a fit. (Because by then, I certainly do.)

Any job that's required 3 or more rounds of interviews has rarely panned out (unless it was to have them call me later because the person they did hire didn't work out).

So if I had a position that paid 2 or 3x your current salary that seemed like a good enough fit to you that you applied for it, you would drop out if a third interview was required?

How many hypothetical variables do you want to argue for? Should I go back N times for every X multiple of my current salary? Likewise, would I cut off The Rolling Stones if they wanted me to audition more than 2 times? Of course not. But let's compare apples to apples. The Stones aren't going to audition me any more than Apple will consider me as a replacement for Tim Cook. But a T-40 bar/corporate band will, and 2 auditions should be plenty to figure it out.

FWIW, I have interviewed multiple rounds for jobs. I didn't make my statement off the cuff. I know that multiple sessions may be necessary to accommodate the schedules of everyone involved in the decision making process, but anytime I start seeing the same stakeholders more than two or three times, it's always a sign that they are disorganized or indecisive. And in those instances when I have seen it through, it's often followed by a crash and burn 6 months later due to said disorganization. A job at 2 or 3x your salary with a dysfunctional company will also eat your liver 2 or 3x as fast. (I know plenty of miserable people making more money than I do.)

I don't like having my chain yanked by employers or bands. I have no problem replacing either when necessary.

 

[friskinator]

If each audition/callback required me to haul my rig down to their rehearsal space, definitely no more than 2. If they're auditioning that many people and doing that many callbacks, they should be offering to provide backline.

 

[B-line]

Nope. Do a little research and see how long it's taken Detroit to hire a principal (correct spelling, BTW) bass. Regarding your friend's experience, I'm sure she's a fine player with a great resume, but major orchestras (NY Phil, Boston, Philadelphia, Chicago, Cleveland, LA, San Francisco, Baltimore, etc) simply do not hire anyone without blind auditions. Back to the original post, two or three callbacks for a serious working band is not a big deal, especially where vocals are a large part of the job

You're now 0 for 2;
I have no doubt you'll wanna make it 0 for 3.
I stated, I thought clearly enough, that a friend of mine after working as a cellist in an orchestra, (Denver) joined another,(San Francisco) and then another without an audition. She was hired in both cases due to her prior experience, an opening in the chair, and her relationship with directors of personnel in those organizations. Yet you say "Not So!"

I'm sure she'll be surprised that it didn't happen.

Major orchestras hire players like baseball teams do, making offers to certain players that they would like to join their group. I studied with Zita Carno, pianist for the LA Phil for many years. She constantly was offered positions in Orchestras around the World, without being asked to audition.

Back to the Original Post- I really don't care if a player wants to subject himself to 2,3, or 10 call-backs for a "serious working band". I hire players for my serious working band; I wouldn't waste their time or mine on even a 2nd audition.
That's how we roll,. and I'll match my calender no problem.
OK you're at bat! Remember, its strike 2!

 

[cchorney]

Absolutely.
As it happens, music IS my job, with a supplemental income as an MI Rep.
It so happens that I'm the "Boss"- that is, the Contractor.

But- even in the World of Job Interviews, given what my qualifications are or hypothetically would be for the position- Damn right! Hire me or don't waste my time. How many times do you think for example, a Computer Programmer who has a demonstrated proficiency, Degree, experience, etc. for the job, would need to be considered?
And like the MD or B/L I gave as an example, Do you think that HR at MicroSoft jerks around to fill a position?

As a computer programmer (well software engineer now as I've been doing it 21 year at 6 different major companies in 3 different metropolitan areas), I feel I can answer the question as to how it works for us. The first time you come in, you spend a couple of hours filling out paperwork and questionnaires and signing away your rights, then you sometimes are required to take a standardized test that is an insult to your intelligence and work history and degree. After that you interview with HR. If they like you, you get scheduled for a group interview with a bunch of managers and experts in things you claimed expertise on your resume. You sit at a big table with 4-10 of them and answer questions for hours. It's designed to shake out the "resume padders" as well as those who can't take pressure. After that, if you still haven't been disqualified, you sit down with the team of the hiring manager - his direct reports (aka staff). These will be your coworkers and they will grill you on the same stuff that everyone else has, plus dive a bit deeper into skills relating to teh specific job. (They'll also ask if you like to eat leftover fish/curry/chinese dinners at your desk for lunch. Always answer no to that one. You're welcome.) Finally, if you succeed at all the previous interviews, you'll interview with the boss directly. They may even take you to lunch, and yes that's part of the interview too. Then you get sent home. HR will call you in a week or three to tell you if you got the job. The whole interview process might be one long ass day or a series of days, not necessarily in a row. It's not designed to be convenient for the candidate, it's designed to be thorough. Maybe, at very high levels (PhD holders going for very specific jobs) the process is streamlined. But I've just got a Bachelor of Science degree in Computer Science, and I am a dime a dozen in my industry. Kind of like competent bass players.

 

[okcrum]

MI is different, but the principle is the same. I don't know what you've been recruited for, if they recruited you, then why an interview, except to settle on Salary etc.? If a company is looking to fill a technical position, you're either qualified /experienced or not. It's a very specialized and compartmentalized World today. If you have the Degree, experience, and meet the qualifications, what else are they looking at? Your choice of neckties?

Music- My gigs, you need to read well. If you can't nail the arrangements, don't even bother to show. Then comes feel, then compatability.
One session is enough to find out if all that is happening.

I was being recruited for senior tech positions. They wanted to know what you knew, how you approached designing systems, pretty much everything. At least one interview was a pure psych evaluation disguised as technical discussion. Most of it in the end was a personality fit.

I guess you've no experience with that world.

 

[B-line]

As a computer programmer (well software engineer now as I've been doing it 21 year at 6 different major companies in 3 different metropolitan areas), I feel I can answer the question as to how it works for us. The first time you come in, you spend a couple of hours filling out paperwork and questionnaires and signing away your rights, then you sometimes are required to take a standardized test that is an insult to your intelligence and work history and degree. After that you interview with HR. If they like you, you get scheduled for a group interview with a bunch of managers and experts in things you claimed expertise on your resume. You sit at a big table with 4-10 of them and answer questions for hours. It's designed to shake out the "resume padders" as well as those who can't take pressure. After that, if you still haven't been disqualified, you sit down with the team of the hiring manager - his direct reports (aka staff). These will be your coworkers and they will grill you on the same stuff that everyone else has, plus dive a bit deeper into skills relating to teh specific job. (They'll also ask if you like to eat leftover fish/curry/chinese dinners at your desk for lunch. Always answer no to that one. You're welcome.) Finally, if you succeed at all the previous interviews, you'll interview with the boss directly. They may even take you to lunch, and yes that's part of the interview too. Then you get sent home. HR will call you in a week or three to tell you if you got the job. The whole interview process might be one long ass day or a series of days, not necessarily in a row. It's not designed to be convenient for the candidate, it's designed to be thorough. Maybe, at very high levels (PhD holders going for very specific jobs) the process is streamlined. But I've just got a Bachelor of Science degree in Computer Science, and I am a dime a dozen in my industry. Kind of like competent bass players.

Well-stated. Not sure about the fish/curry pre-req tho.
I forgot to mention my Cousin Dave. Wow. This guy, UCLA grad, is Nobel quality really. I couldn't even tell you what he does, way beyond my scope of comprehension, but I have been to his home/office and he has a super-cute Assistant who is working on HER own Doctorate in advanced something or the other, Physics?
Dave has been hired as a consultant by MANY big-time companies for his extreme talents. He is a loner, a "mad-scientist" type, so he has no interest in the positions with astronomical salaries they offer him, basedon is patents, achievements, and so on.
An interview in his case would be laughable, he is that high on the scientific food chain, I keed you not
So would it be interviewing Lee Sklar for a session. Yeh, right.

I was being recruited for senior tech positions. They wanted to know what you knew, how you approached designing systems, pretty much everything. At least one interview was a pure psych evaluation disguised as technical discussion. Most of it in the end was a personality fit.

I guess you've no experience with that world.

No I don't have experinece in that field, why would I? I run a Rhythm Section; and hire players when needed.
Like the OP's BS B/L, We are a cover band, Casinos/Corporate for the last 7 years.
And I stated clearly several times- IME IMO having 3 callbacks is BS. I'm staying with that. I don't waste the time of the player auditioning, or our own.
I'm the Contractor,I know at the very1st call who's competent and capable of working for us. Been there done that many times.
I guess you've no experience with that world.

 

[okcrum]

No I don't have esperinece in that field, why would I? I run a Rhythm Section; and hire players when needed.
Like the OP's BS B/L, We are a cover band, Casinos/Corporate for the last 7 years.
And I stated clearly several times- IME IMO having 3 callbacks is BS. I'm staying with that. I don't waste the time of the player auditioning or our own.
I'm the Contractor,I know at the1st call who's competent and capable of working for us. Been there done that many times.
I guess you've no experience with that world.

Well, you sure wrote like you knew how things should work in that field.

That experience isn't mutually exclusive. I've plenty of experience as a contractor/contract corp, as well, in music and other fields.

You wouldn't go to the third callback. I might, if the organization had potential above and beyond the casino/corp scene. Not likely, but possible.

 

[B-line]

[QUOTE="B-line, post: 20323888, member: 297857"No I don't have esperinece in that field, why would I? I run a Rhythm Section; and hire players when needed.
Like the OP's BS B/L, We are a cover band, Casinos/Corporate for the last 7 years.
And I stated clearly several times- IME IMO having 3 callbacks is BS. I'm staying with that. I don't waste the time of the player auditioning or our own.
I'm the Contractor,I know at the1st call who's competent and capable of working for us. Been there done that many times.
I guess you've no experience with that world.

Well, you sure wrote like you knew how things should work in that field.

That experience isn't mutually exclusive. I've plenty of experience as a contractor/contract corp, as well, in music and other fields.

You wouldn't go to the third callback. I might, if the organization had potential above and beyond the casino/corp scene. Not likely, but possible.[/QUOTE]

Not likely at all. Many of my "co-workers" are now playing or have played w/ World-Class acts, touring and here at home.
There is not even a 2nd call-back there; MD's have players that are on-call, or it is a word-of-mouth referral.
That type of example has been posted here IMO somewhat ludicrously before, and my reply is the same.
Gigs that are good-to-go don't have the time or need to hold 3 or more call-backs. That's show-biz.

I posted of my very personal experience in both the tech field and with major symphonies, My Cousin, Bro-in-Law, and good friend, the cellist.
They don't do interviews and are not asked to. Really.
As with a lot of the players I use. I know who they are, I know what they can do. If they want the job- They've got it.

 

[okcrum]

Well, you sure wrote like you knew how things should work in that field.

That experience isn't mutually exclusive. I've plenty of experience as a contractor/contract corp, as well, in music and other fields.

You wouldn't go to the third callback. I might, if the organization had potential above and beyond the casino/corp scene. Not likely, but possible.

Not likely at all. Many of my "co-workers" are now playing or have played w/ World-Class acts, touring and here at home.
There is not even a 2nd call-back there; MD's have players that are on-call, or it is a word-of-mouth referral.
That type of example has been posted here IMO somewhat ludicrously before, and my reply is the same.
Gigs that are good-to-go don't have the time or need to hold 3 or more call-backs. That's show-biz.

I posted of my very personal experience in both the tech field and with major symphonies, My Cousin, Bro-in-Law, and good friend, the cellist.
They don't do interviews and are not asked to. Really.
As with a lot of the players I use. I know who they are, I know what they can do. If they want the job- They've got it.[/QUOTE]

Agreed, word-of-mouth is well known to shorten the call back cycle. In fact, I'm sometimes surprised that there are callbacks at all. In the OP's case, another possibility is that no one's that standout and they're waiting on someone's buddy. That goes for tech too. Some interviews are pure formalities.

 

[B-line]

Not likely at all. Many of my "co-workers" are now playing or have played w/ World-Class acts, touring and here at home.
There is not even a 2nd call-back there; MD's have players that are on-call, or it is a word-of-mouth referral.
That type of example has been posted here IMO somewhat ludicrously before, and my reply is the same.
Gigs that are good-to-go don't have the time or need to hold 3 or more call-backs. That's show-biz.

I posted of my very personal experience in both the tech field and with major symphonies, My Cousin, Bro-in-Law, and good friend, the cellist.
They don't do interviews and are not asked to. Really.
As with a lot of the players I use. I know who they are, I know what they can do. If they want the job- They've got it.

Agreed, word-of-mouth is well known to shorten the call back cycle. In fact, I'm sometimes surprised that there are callbacks at all. In the OP's case, another possibility is that no one's that standout and they're waiting on someone's buddy.[/QUOTE]

Well, word-of mouth eliminates not only the call-back, but the audition itself. And altho there IS an analogy between high-tech interviews/ selection, symphony orchestras, or Janitor positions, lest we forget the OP's issue:

They asked him back for a 3rd time; that's at least (1) too many IMO. I don't run their band, they may have a thing or 2 to tell me about their past selections, their process, and their motives. Fine, its all good.
Frankly, after years of doing what we do, I just don't have the TIME let alone the desire to look for "Mr. Right" the Drummer, e.g.- There is an abundance here of solid drummers who read and bring the funk, and need (and will do)a good job.

 

[okcrum]

Agreed, word-of-mouth is well known to shorten the call back cycle. In fact, I'm sometimes surprised that there are callbacks at all. In the OP's case, another possibility is that no one's that standout and they're waiting on someone's buddy.

Well, word-of mouth eliminates not only the call-back, but the audition itself. And altho there IS an analogy between high-tech interviews/ selection, symphony orchestras, or Janitor positions, lest we forget the OP's issue:

They asked him back for a 3rd time; that's at least (1) too many IMO. I don't run their band, they may have a thing or 2 to tell me about their past selections, their process, and their motives. Fine, its all good.
Frankly, after years of doing what we do, I just don't have the TIME let alone the desire to look for "Mr. Right" the Drummer, e.g.- There is an abundance here of solid drummers who read and bring the funk, and need (and will do)a good job.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what's gone wrong with the quoting here. Something's cutting off the second tag.

If you always and only go for people you know, then you don't run auditions. If you are choosing from a group you've never seen in person, the video is one round to my thinking. The OP is not in a normal position, asked for another callback, but there's not enough info to tell if that's good or bad. Flip a coin.

 

[B-line]

Well, word-of mouth eliminates not only the call-back, but the audition itself. And altho there IS an analogy between high-tech interviews/ selection, symphony orchestras, or Janitor positions, lest we forget the OP's issue:

They asked him back for a 3rd time; that's at least (1) too many IMO. I don't run their band, they may have a thing or 2 to tell me about their past selections, their process, and their motives. Fine, its all good.
Frankly, after years of doing what we do, I just don't have the TIME let alone the desire to look for "Mr. Right" the Drummer, e.g.- There is an abundance here of solid drummers who read and bring the funk, and need (and will do)a good job.

I'm not sure what's gone wrong with the quoting here. Something's cutting off the second tag.

If you always and only go for people you know, then you don't run auditions. If you are choosing from a group you've never seen in person, the video is one round to my thinking. The OP is not in a normal position, asked for another callback, but there's not enough info to tell if that's good or bad. Flip a coin.[/QUOTE]

Totally wrong with the quotes, no doubt a TB error.They need to interview/hire an IT guy!
I don't like the audition process and try & avoid it. Open-call auditions don't take place unless our "roster" of players is n/a, which happens! Good players get work, many times for extended engagements.
I believe the OP (so long ago!) made at least 2 trips, and IMO, if they've not made him the offer, that would be IT, at least for me!