How many watts do I -really- need?

[ahc]

 

[bherman]

Hard to beat this hybrid option. Easy carry, plenty of power, well-built and terrific customer service.

 

[somebrains]

I’ve tried to search. Haven’t quite found the answer.

I love my 6x10 Mesa Cab. I used to drive it with a solid state Carvin head. But I want to move to an all-tube setup. But I don’t -think- I need a huge setup. I just want to be able to hear the bass over the drums and guitar during the practice.

Will 300W work? Or do I need to go to 800? I’ve never owned an Ampeg or a Bassman. But I’d really like the warmth of a tube setup.

Advise/suggestions?

I thought I wanted a 610 for a while so I dragged by black line SVT and SVT2 non pro btw SF and LA trying cabs out while I was supposed to be working.

Plenty of spl with power tube dirt, bc that's where I'm going with a tube head.

If you're trying to go clean power but preamp distortion, save your back. Run the pedal(s), preamp, head you like and go with the A/AB/D Poweramp that suits you best.

Also when in doubt use an GK800rb as a sanity check.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

The 1500W was plenty! I just want to move to a tube set-up. The fender superbassman has a 500w and 800w option. Googling says there are some 400-500w options. But those are likely overkill.

300 tube watts is way over kill dude. Go for 100. You'll have well more than enough vume to drown a drummer, and be able to dial in some grind if you want to.

 

[kosmicwizard]

I recommend this

Used Mesa/Boogie Mesa Boogie Buster Bass 200 Head

 

[jid]

That one is on the short list. There are a couple on Reverb also. I’ve always liked Mesa... so maybe I try them both and compare.

 

[beaglesandbass]

I’ve tried to search. Haven’t quite found the answer.

I love my 6x10 Mesa Cab. I used to drive it with a solid state Carvin head. But I want to move to an all-tube setup. But I don’t -think- I need a huge setup. I just want to be able to hear the bass over the drums and guitar during the practice.

Will 300W work? Or do I need to go to 800? I’ve never owned an Ampeg or a Bassman. But I’d really like the warmth of a tube setup.

Advise/suggestions?

0, technically. You can use a DI box and just go straight to the PA. When I gig I either do that or use a 500 watt 212 combo and have no issues with either rig.

 

[micguy]

The loudest band I ever played in was my college band. I had a 100 watt transistor head - played through a couple 115's that was plenty loud. I could always hear myself just fine, and in the process even got a decent case of tinnitus. OK, the cymbals probably contributed to that, but even if it was them that was that loud, I was easily keeping up with that drum set with 100 watts. In that era, if you wanted to play huge stadium gigs, you bought an SVT - 270 watts.

Somehow, now that you can buy 1000 watts for not much money, 300 is apparently "not enough" for band practice in a basement. Yes, the amp I play a coffee house gig with will put out 250 watts,...that's immense overkill, but as I can't find a good 25 watt amp for a modest amount of money, and it has a volume control, it works just fine.

You don't need as much power as you might think from the posts here.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Recommendations for a hybrid?

Mesa D-800

 

[oldskoolskatedad]

300 tube watts is way over kill dude. Go for 100. You'll have well more than enough vume to drown a drummer, and be able to dial in some grind if you want to.

300 tube watts may not be overkill if you want to keep it clean especially depending on with whom, what and where you are playing.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

No?
View attachment 3816296

I had a 100 watt version. I can’t imagine where you would Need 4 times more wattage.

 

[eff-clef]

Less than $1000 I would go for an Orange Terror Bass(either a used 1000 or new 500) OR a Fender Super Bassman(about $1100 used or $1800 new)

 

[Thumpin6string]

As many as you can afford.

 

[Michedelic]

I had a 100 watt version. I can’t imagine where you would Need 4 times more wattage.

You still see plenty of SVT’s. I’ve got a TC BH800 that I can hold in my hand, but in the end, it depends on what speakers you’re going through. 400 watts doesn’t mean 4 times the loudness of a 100 watt head.

 

[GreggBummer]

How much rig you need depends on how much rig the rest of the band has, and how much of it they actually use. 15W of all-tube amp can get painfully loud through the right speakers, and it wasn't until bands were trying to be heard over thousands of teenage girls screaming as loud as they could for the entire concert that amp makers even bothered with 30W. Amps got louder from there mainly because PA systems didn't have enough power to mike up a full mix of the entire band, a problem we left behind at least 30 years ago as the class D solid-state amp started packing high-wattage-high-efficiency amplification into relatively small packages.

So, first and foremost, if your guitarists are using more than about 30W worth of tube amp each, you need to sit down and discuss whether more is really necessary, and why. The solution is probably either to back everything off a bit (including taming the gorilla on the skins in the backline), or to invest in a PA that can cleanly amplify miked amps and direct sources at the proper volume.

All that said, bass wattage has to be calculated differently, for several reasons:

1. Bass frequencies don't sound as loud as midrange and treble. At 90dB SPL, a 100Hz frequency sounds 12dB quieter than a 1kHz sound at the same SPL. To make them mix, the 100Hz signal needs approximately 20 times the power level of the 1kHz signal. That's a worst-case for many reasons, but it tells you what you're up against.
2. The bass has to fill the low end, between about 40-600Hz, against every other instrument in the band. So that twenty-fold increase in power needs to compete with not just one guitar amp, but probably two, and the PA, and the drummer.
3. Solid-state amplifiers are rated differently than tube amplifiers, because of the differences in amp circuitry, efficiency, and behavior at or near peak levels. Simply stated, tube amps today are basically built to be overdriven, while solid-state amps are built to avoid overdriving at all costs. Just 6dB of "headroom" to do so requires four times the peak power rating.

So, bass amps are rated up to and exceeding 1000W because this is what they're up against.

The formula I typically use, assuming you can't expect any PA help, is as follows:

1. Add up the wattages of all the tube amps in the band. Divide this number by 2 if they commonly play on the clean channel and/or keep their master volumes below halfway.
2. Add up the wattages of all solid-state amps besides yours (PA, separate keys amp etc). Divide this number by 4.
3. If the drum kit isn't miked, take either number and divide it by the number of amps it represents (so if you have two guitar amps totalling 60W, figure another 30 as the drummer's "power").
4. Add all the numbers from steps 1-3, and double it. You may even double again depending on brand and speaker count (fewer speakers need more watts).

So, simple working example, your band has a vocalist who plays rhythm, a lead guitarist, a drummer and you. The PA only supports the vocalist and a couple acoustic guitars when they're used. The guitarists both have 30W amps and they crank em pretty hard, while the PA rig is 300W. So, 30W for each guitar amp, another 30 for the drummer, and the PA is being used cleanly at about 75W to keep 6 dB of headroom, all means you should be looking at no less than 240W for your bass amp, and 500W honestly wouldn't be too much.

Now, that gets much harder when you say you want all-tube. You can buy amps the size of a dictionary with 750 watts peak rating. Tubes take up space, and they need even more space to ventilate they heat they generate. A single tube also has a power limit; EL34 and 6L6 tubes max out at about 50w per tube, so a 300W head needs 6 of em. Add in the input transformers (can't use a switching supply) and you're looking at a 40- to 80-pound amp head (that's just the head; my old Peavey rig was a monster and it was 80 lbs for the 300W head and 4 10s). A class A amplifier at that wattage is also ridiculously inefficient, meaning the 300W head could easily draw over 1000W from the wall at peak levels (meaning if you're running anything else on a 15A breaker circuit you will likely pop the breaker), and even at minimum volume or with nothing plugged in, it could draw its rated wattage just to bias the tubes.

Long story short, bass players went solid-state for a reason. You can get an all-tube head with enough oomph to be heard at practice, but you'll pay about $2000 for that practice amp, and it will definitely stay a practice amp as you will very soon find any excuse you can to avoid carting that beast to gigs.

If you want tubes, what you probably really want is a tube preamp stage, which uses the old-fashioned tube transistor circuit to boost the input signal to working levels, before it's amplified to speaker power levels by a Class D power amp stage. That gets you most of the recognizable tone character of an all-tube amp - almost all of it if you're not planning on diming the master volume - at a fraction of the cost and weight.

This is a fantastic post.

 

[_Some Dude]

SVT VR vs Mesa Buster. Is that apples to oranges or both good choices?

I’m a Mesa fanboy (have a Strategy, M6 Carbine and WD800). The Buster didn’t excite me. Felt kind of bland.

As for Ampeg, get the VR if you want a lot of clean headroom. If you want a dirtier sound at any volume, opt for the CL. I really wanted a VR until I played one, then I realized the CL was better for the sound I’m after.

 

[Methaneman]

I’ve tried to search. Haven’t quite found the answer.

I love my 6x10 Mesa Cab. I used to drive it with a solid state Carvin head. But I want to move to an all-tube setup. But I don’t -think- I need a huge setup. I just want to be able to hear the bass over the drums and guitar during the practice.

Will 300W work? Or do I need to go to 800? I’ve never owned an Ampeg or a Bassman. But I’d really like the warmth of a tube setup.

Advise/suggestions?

Ampeg V4B is my suggestion. Reissue ones weight 40 lbs. I've got a 73', 65lbs. They have the tube tone you want.

 

[The Expendable Clay]

I’ve tried to search. Haven’t quite found the answer.

I love my 6x10 Mesa Cab. I used to drive it with a solid state Carvin head. But I want to move to an all-tube setup. But I don’t -think- I need a huge setup. I just want to be able to hear the bass over the drums and guitar during the practice.

Will 300W work? Or do I need to go to 800? I’ve never owned an Ampeg or a Bassman. But I’d really like the warmth of a tube setup.

Advise/suggestions?

5000.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

You still see plenty of SVT’s. I’ve got a TC BH800 that I can hold in my hand, but in the end, it depends on what speakers you’re going through. 400 watts doesn’t mean 4 times the loudness of a 100 watt head.

What I meant was it was painful to turn mine up over 4. 400 watts would up the ante from painful to torturous.

Seriously, today I play with either an Eden WT-800 (bridged 800 powering (2)210 cabs @ a 4 ohm load , or a WT-1250 Stereo power amp into the same cabs at about 350 watts a cabs. Pretty much this is good for anything from theaters and out door gigs (see avatar).

 

[swarfrat]

With tubes all you can afford sort of takes care of itself quickly, but even if Agedhorse have you guys a magical transformerless amp and said how many watts? After the first 60w they're free. The answer is probably not 1500w. Or you might as well be lugging a solid state amp.

The whole point of a tube power amp is that it is going to be contributing a bit of distortion. Even a little. If you need more than 300w of tube (which is sort of assuming a large high efficiency can to hold it up), unless you're playing acme cabs, then that's between you, FOH, monitor mix engineer, the Roadies union, and the police.