How much does a sound guy really tweak your bass sound?

[Basshoofd]

I've been playing gigs for about 10 years and I've noticed that at most gigs I do (bars/party's/clubs) the sound guy seems to mainly focus on the volume levels of the instruments, especially when it comes to my bass. My sound check usually consists of checking if my DI signal works, taking less than a minute. Other instruments seem to get more attention during their individual sound check.

Do I need to make sure my DI sends the exact sound I want or do I trust the sound guy to make the bass sound good for that particular show?

 

[Geri O]

Oh, Lawd, this should blow up quite nicely....

There's not really one answer to this, other than, yes, you should step out front when it's practical and see if your bass is sounding like you prefer. Whether or not you can do anything about it can turn into an epic topic.

Have you heard your tone out front, or heard any comments from other players about your tone? (One reason, among several, that I run wireless, even on small gigs)

Some sound guys can be trusted to make it sound good within the context of the overall mix. This means good, even tone, not too bright, not too deep (unless you are going for such a tone, which is fine, too). Also, he will work to get any effects on your bass in the mix, too.

Unfortunately, some sound guys will not give it much attention. They are probably limited by the PA they have, or just not capable of making a good balanced mix, or they are on a time crunch, or in the case of a lot of house sound guys, your band is just one more band on the list that he has to deal with as part of his job. Anyone in any profession can get burned out after a while (I did on the PA business, fortunately it led me back into playing again) (and that's a scary thought in many professions such as medicine, construction, nuclear physics , and other critical jobs).

And having been faced with less-than-optimum production as the bassists in several bands, I've run the gamut, from the sound guy asking me what I like for my tone out front (My response is, not too bottom-heavy, a little bit of crunch, but first, make it work in the mix and make sure the vocals are up front) to looking over a situation (as a couple of weeks ago) and telling my bandmates, "guys, this is pretty hopeless. Let's just get up there, play our asses off, smile, and don't worry about the production because it's going to SUCK". And any speaking with the sound guy is just going to piss him off and probably make things worse. Just run with it". (Please, note, this was obviously an extreme situation. But they are out there) And that job got us more booking leads than any one job ever has. How odd is that!

One last note, it's entirely possible that you have a great-sounding instrument that takes very little work to sound good (I hear that about my Jazz V bass, which was the way I intended it).

 

[cheapbasslovin]

My theory is make the signal you give him sound as good as possible within the scope of your band (don't figure out your EQ at home then hope that smiley face tone will work somehow with the band, but figure it out in rehearsal with the band), and hope he can do magical things with it. I've had some that can and others that can't, but what are you going to do? You learn which guys you like and then you hope to avoid the others in the future.

 

[Acoustic356]

I ran sound live sound prior to becoming a bassist.

Here are some things that I think make a good sound engineer:

• Be familiar with the genre of music
• Be familiar with the room

This statement is going to be really controversial, but I have found that most white sound engineers tend to mix snare and guitars higher in the mix, while black sound engineers tend to mix bass and kick drum more heavily.

My goal was to make sure that the mix reflected what the artist anticipated - .e., is there more organ? is this keyboard heavy? etc.

I was listening to a band the yesterday where the organ player was rocking, and it was pushed so down in the mix it was just frustrating.

Anyway... based upon the room, the venue, etc. sometimes I would adjust the EQ on the bass. Sometimes cutting the lows and boosting the mids just makes the bass sound better to the crowd. If the bassist is doing incredible melodic work - I would definitely make it stand out in the mix more.

 

[two fingers]

I both run sound and play bass. To answer your question I would need to know what kind of tone you run.

One good sign is that you run DI. Generally I can do more with a signal straight off the bass than I can with something EQed too boomy. I certainly can and will work with a signal off of a pedal board or amp if it's not too boomy.

Short version is as follows (and anyone who tells you any different hasn't run sound enough through enough kinds of PAs in enough kind of sertings).

Send me something a little bright and I can fit it into any mix. I can add lows and dial back highs. (Way over simplified but you get the point.)

Send me something very boomy and I can't do a thing with it. You can't "add" mids and/or highs that aren't there. Period.

I can't clear up something muddy but I sure can beef up something bright.

Also your speaker cabs have a tremendous affect on your sound. So something that sounds amazing on stage might sound like poo out front.

So, if your sound guy isn't messing with your sound very much one of only two possible scenarios is playing out. Either your tone is something he can work with out of the gate or your tone is crap and it isn't worth locking horns with bass players who get all butt hurt when you ask them to brighten things up a bit so you can do something with it.



We can't polish a turd. And if you are one of those guys who is more concerned about having "MY TONE" on stage rather than something good for the FOH mix then we won't even try to polish it.

Lots of bassists (and particularly keys and guitar players) don't know anything at all about room physics, blending, assigning each instrument it's own segment of the frequency spectrum etc. Guitar players will drop tune and get down into bass range. Keys players think they own themail entire spectrum at stadium volumes. We do the best we can with what you guys give us.

Try going to your mechanic and telling him how to fix your car. Go to the tax office and tell them how and when you are going to pay your taxes. Tell your dentist how you want your teeth cleaned.

We are all trained in certain skill sets. If your sound guy is not trained that's another story altogether. But if he is let him do his job. And if he needs you to adjust something to make you sound better out front just do it within reason. Odds are he really does no what sounds better in a mix than you do.

Again I'm a bass player too so I have a vested interest on both sides of this fence.

 

[s0c9]

I both run sound and play bass. To answer your question I would need to know what kind of tone you run.
.
.
We can't polish a turd. And if you are one of those guys who is more concerned about having "MY TONE" on stage rather than something good for the FOH mix then we won't even try to polish it.

Lots of bassists (and particularly keys and guitar players) don't know anything at all about room physics, blending, assigning each instrument it's own segment of the frequency spectrum etc. Guitar players will drop tune and get down into bass range. Keys players think they own themail entire spectrum at stadium volumes. We do the best we can with what you guys give us.

^^^^ This ^^^^
I do both also - and play guitar!
I want FOH to sound as close to the CD (studio) equivalent as I can get it when I mix.

But, I'm limited by what I get from the stage. It's tough to isolate things in the mix when the kick isn't tuned, bass is flubby or brittle and lower register on keys steps all over both!! More "ME" does not work live and too many musicians think that what works in the bedroom works live also.

I will do what I can to make the bass (and everyone else) fit in the best mix I can get for the room and the equipment I have.

But remember, garbage in = garbage out!

 

[LiquidMidnight]

This is going to be a controversial statement (the second one for the thread ), but like many guitarists, many bassists really have crap tone, especially at the weekend player level. I find that most have too much lows and not nearly enough high-mids and highs. As Two Fingers and s09 pointed out, when that's the tone being fed to the FOH, it's really difficult to do anything meaningful with it for the house mix. Also, a lot of bass players need to change strings more often. Trying to make dead strings sound good in the mix is a tough order. Even getting a great flatwound sound is an art in itself.

 

[EastCoastThump]

My sound check usually consists of checking if my DI signal works, taking less than a minute.

If you seem to be getting not much more than a line check and a couple moments of critical listening, that could be about work flow. Few FOH mixes are built ground-up around a bass tone; they use the bass as glue. So unless the gig's mixed by someone who knows your band well, they probably won't know from the jump how much space (and certainly not *which* space) the bass will end up having in the mix.

On small jobs, the FOH jockey's shooting for a reasonable mix during sound check, one that will get increasingly dialed in over the band's first couple songs. Fine-tuning the bass (and the space other instruments leave for it) usually happens then.

 

[Jazz Ad]

I'm a mediocre, 3rd choice emergency sound guy.
I always do sound in bad conditions. I don't know the room, don't know the rental gear other than my personal console and compressors, often don't know the band.
I try to make each instrument sound good individually, touching it as little as possible.
Then I check the whole band and try to limit the damage. That's when pass and notch filters get some action.
I can do decent to good but I can't do great. This has to come from the band.
If they didn't do their homework and have overlaping frequencies all over (oh, the dreaded 250Hz bump), I have to make severe cuts in the sound of some instruments to enhance general tone.
Basically I work for the audience, trying to sculpt something pleasant. The band's desires barely come into consideratio, unless they sound works well from start in which case I may have time for refinement.

 

[Basshoofd]

many bassists really have crap tone, especially at the weekend player level. I find that most have too much lows and not nearly enough high-mids and highs. As Two Fingers and s09 pointed out, when that's the tone being fed to the FOH, it's really difficult to do anything meaningful with it for the house mix. Also, a lot of bass players need to change strings more often. Trying to make dead strings sound good in the mix is a tough order. Even getting a great flatwound sound is an art in itself.

I'm the guy who likes a warm, dry bass sound without metallic sounds or ear piercing highs. I usually play with dead rounds and still like to roll off some highs to get a warm fingerstyle sound. Would you recommend me playing with newer strings and just telling the sound man that I want a warm sound?

 

[fokof]

"How much does a sound guy really tweak your bass sound?"

Depends on the source and the type of music.

"Tone" is a part of the arrangement of a song , if no effort is done by the artists to "place" the different Tones in the song then it becomes part of the soundman to try do do something about it. (or producer in the studio)
And it's not always doable in a Live context.

It's not given to all musician to leave space for the other musician , note wise and tone wise.


Like other said : trying to polish a turd is an impossible task.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

Would you recommend me playing with newer strings and just telling the sound man that I want a warm sound?

In general, yes. My philosophy on sound is that it's easier to cut something you don't want than boost something that isn't there in the first place. You can always cut abrasive highs, but trying to EQ in something that doesn't exist is tough. Older strings don't just lose their zinginess; they also lose their focus and often end up sounding flubby and muddy. Generally, you can warm up a set of newer strings, but other than some compression, you can't do much to tighten up old, loose strings.

 

[JimmyM]

All depends on the sound tech. Some leave you in charge, some micromanage it. The ones who leave me in charge I like much better

 

[musicman7722]

I think every bass player should have to run sound at lest 3 times with 3 different bands. The bass is the hardest thing to mix. I know I've tried.

 

[Geri O]

I think every bass player should have to run sound at lest 3 times with 3 different bands. The bass is the hardest thing to mix. I know I've tried.

That. Much. Is. Certain....

 

[Mark Reccord]

Both the bass player and the sound person should understand where the bass should sit in the context of the particular band. A big wooly dub sound works fine for reggae or other styles with a lot of space but doesn't work so well for heavy rock where the sonic landscape is high density. As always, communication is key.

Bass is by far the most difficult thing to deal with when mixing sound.

I also wouldn't assume that a sound person needs to spend a bunch of time on each player to get good sound. Back when I was doing sound full time I could often soundcheck a band who had their stuff together in under 10 minutes. Most bands appreciated a speedy soundcheck. One group complained once that they felt I didn't spend enough time on soundcheck. I asked them if they had any complaints about the mix and monitors and they said that they thought the sound was excellent. So I asked them why the hell should we have spent any more time on soundcheck than we did. They just had a preconceived idea of how long it should take and were a bit worried they weren't getting their money's worth. I'd suggest that quick, effective soundchecks are the definition of getting good value for your money when paying a sound person.

 

[JimmyM]

The bass is somewhat difficult but certainly not insurmountable, and it shouldn't take too much time to get a happening sound.

 

[Mark Reccord]

The bass is somewhat difficult but certainly not insurmountable, and it shouldn't take too much time to get a happening sound.

It certainly seems insurmountable by a fairly large proportion of "sound people" even with leeway given for difficult room acoustics and such.

 

[13lues]

In general, yes. My philosophy on sound is that it's easier to cut something you don't want than boost something that isn't there in the first place. You can always cut abrasive highs, but trying to EQ in something that doesn't exist is tough. Older strings don't just lose their zinginess; they also lose their focus and often end up sounding flubby and muddy. Generally, you can warm up a set of newer strings, but other than some compression, you can't do much to tighten up old, loose strings.

That reminds me of a few "rules of thumb" that I learned while studying studio work. You can generally only add about 6db to a frequency before you start getting some nasty artifacts, while you can cut MUCH more than that before things start sounding bad…as long as you're picking the right ones to cut.

 

[Geri O]

The bass is somewhat difficult but certainly not insurmountable, and it shouldn't take too much time to get a happening sound.

And when there's difficulty, it's way more often that not due to a badly deployed and/or tuned PA (mis-aligned or tuned sub and low components), or room anomalies (square rooms, hard flat walls, tall ceiling, etc) that affect the bass's tone quality more than the other instruments.

All those problems are one thing. How the sound guy deals with them is another. Too bad these issues get blamed on the bass player's tone. Entirely too often.