How much does a sound guy really tweak your bass sound?

[Scott Waldy]

On small jobs, the FOH jockey's shooting for a reasonable mix during sound check, one that will get increasingly dialed in over the band's first couple songs. Fine-tuning the bass (and the space other instruments leave for it) usually happens then.

I always do sound in bad conditions. I don't know the room, I do know the gear, my personal console and compressors, often don't know the band.
I try to make each instrument sound good individually, touching it as little as possible.
Then I check the whole band and try to limit the damage. That's when pass and notch filters get some action.
I can do decent to good but I can't do great. This has to come from the band.
Basically I work for the audience, trying to sculpt something pleasant. The band's desires barely come into consideration, unless they sound works well from start in which case I may have time for refinement.

I've cut and pasted the "Jist" of each time I've taken my rig out to do Festivals or One Off shows. Usually, I get a quick Line Check and a very quick Sound Check and we're off to the races. I'll finesse the mix over the first couple of songs and the rest will be little touches here and there. Rarely ever do I get to actually build a mix from the ground up with a proper Sound Check. Just my .02 worth.

 

[Emanuel Apascaritei]

I've been playing gigs for about 10 years and I've noticed that at most gigs I do (bars/party's/clubs) the sound guy seems to mainly focus on the volume levels of the instruments, especially when it comes to my bass. My sound check usually consists of checking if my DI signal works, taking less than a minute. Other instruments seem to get more attention during their individual sound check.

Do I need to make sure my DI sends the exact sound I want or do I trust the sound guy to make the bass sound good for that particular show?

What else do you want? If the tone is not muddy and seats clear in the mix what else do you want? I really don´t understand it. Keep things simple and will work, and speacially in a live setting.

If you want to know why the sound guy spends more time on other things rather than your bass than why don´t you investigate why? Like learning sound engineering, and you´ll answer your own question.

We think we are the most important musician on stage and we want more attention. Believe me there are other more important problems on stage to take care of than simple D.I. sound wich, IMHO, IME, is the most simple signal that comes from stage.

 

[Downunderwonder]

There's a sound guy here who takes perfectly usuable bass tone and makes it sound like a 44gal drum being hit with a baseball bat.

 

[Frankjohnson]

A lot of times, depending on how loud the actual amp is in the room, all you can do is support it, and sometimes, not even that. In cases where it isn't overbearing from the stage, I try to make it deep, low, round, punchy (still tight) and add in what ever character I can by bring it up just enough to fill out with the Kick. usually - if no one vomits, I think i am at least close.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

The bass is the hardest thing to mix.

I think a lot of that comes down to an interaction of bass having such a wide frequency spectrum (which is somewhat different than a wide range, i.e., a piano) and it being at the mercy of the room more so than other instruments. A guitarist can tweak a rig at home and then play ten gigs in ten different rooms without much need to EQ and maybe only slight changes at the board for FOH. A bass player and sound engineer may have to do significant adjustments in each and every room to get a good bass sound.

There's a lot of discussion here about how the bass fits into and compliments a mix, which is very important. My philosophy is that the kick and the bass guitar really need to each be mixed in a way that compliment one another. There's too much emphasis by some players and engineers for both the kick and the bass to be "BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!" The key is to mix kick and bass in a way that each is distinct but yet almost act as a single instrument. That's why sealed cabs often sound great in a mix: They roll-off at a point where they sit just above the kick drum.

 

[Frankjohnson]

I think a lot of that comes down to an interaction of bass having such a wide frequency spectrum (which is somewhat different than a wide range, i.e., a piano) and it being at the mercy of the room more so than other instruments.

My philosophy is that the kick and the bass guitar really need to each be mixed in a way that compliment one another.

The key is to mix kick and bass in a way that each is distinct but yet almost act as a single instrument. That's why sealed cabs often sound great in a mix: They roll-off at a point where they sit just above the kick drum.

Very cool insight

 

[LiquidMidnight]

Very cool insight

Thanks Frank! Saw you live in Dover, Delaware. I've played a club there called Cowboy Up. Cool venue, worst stage for mixing in existence (since we're talking about tough mixing situations here *lol*).

 

[Frankjohnson]

Great owners - at Cowboy up. I run sound and shows just south of there (south end of the Dover Air Base) at a golf course called Jonathans Landing. It was never inteded as a sound venue - SO....I might have you beat on that one.

That said - its 'Mericas Only Blues Joint with a Golf course built on it!

 

[4Mal]

Bass is the hardest thing to mix ...

Not really. I start with a system that is pretty much tuned. The whole thing is aligned using SMAART. I have primary and secondary subs. They have variable time alignment depending on location relative to the tops. I fit the room with familiar program material when it is as empty as possible. It doesn't take much to find hot spots in the bass even at lower volume levels.

Starting from there, I check the drums for ring, then get a kick and snare sound. Then add the bass. Now we have a foundation to build on. The rest of the kit will generally fall into place. I personally move on to voices but it could easily be other mid forward sources... To me they key is getting a solid, full low end and the layering on the other sources.

I'll share a sound-guy union certified secret... Don't turn up the keys ever. It just encourages them to overplay even more. If they can't hear clearly, they often leave some space... And the beauty of aux fed subs... You don't actually have to put the keys in the subs unless they deserve it... Yuk yuk... Of course I never actually follow though, but a guy can dream ;-)

One thing I notice in other local sound guys is the "It's good enough" syndrome. I am generally tweaking until the set is done. You just have to listen and pay attention. I'm not so far into it at this point that I've reached burn out.

 

[fokof]

And the beauty of aux fed subs.

..... is the beauty of sweepable hi-pass.

"good enough" is a relative thing , like " let's stop arranging that song , it's OK how it is"

 

[lfmn16]

Just my 2 cents, but send him the sound you want and take a minute to talk to him. When we use our own sound man I'm pretty picky. When we use someone else's I just revel in the sound from my amp and hope for the best out front.

You will never win the argument with a sound man because they just do what they want the minute you are back on stage. Tell him what you want and that's about all you can do.

 

[Gearhead17]

Sound guys will do whatever they want. I have been in rooms where EVERYONE's bass tone sounded the same - why exactly? The room was small and the acoustics were horribly bad. He did it so the bass was actually audible. Not the nicest thing to do, but it made the bands sound ok. Not much in variety, but it worked. I have worked with a few sound guy's who actually trusted me. They noticed that I provided a Radial JDI, Audix D4 mic with mic stand, and made sure to keep my stage volume at a non-destructive level. Guess what? I got the tone I heard on stage coming through loud and clear in the PA. Sure, it was tweaked a little to work with the room, but I finally felt like my tone actually mattered.

I think the majority of us get angry with sound guy's because they will take forever to get the drums sounding good then spend a few more minutes getting the guitars rolling. Then spend even more time on the vocals. We all understand feedback issues and what not...but when our tone comes around, it's about 10 seconds. No discussion on our tone, effects we will switch on later in the night or anything. It's like, "You play bass, you sound like 'this' and that is all." We buy all of this gear for ourselves I guess. BUT we consider our tones/notes to bring the band together - when a sound guy takes 10 seconds on your tone, and never talks to you or actually listens to you about the tone you are trying to create, you feel useless. You feel as if everything you are doing is a waste of time.

lfmn16 has the right idea, talk to the sound man and hope for the best. In the future, I am going to introduce myself, buy him a drink and/or slip him $10 to let him know I appreciate his efforts.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

Great owners - at Cowboy up. I run sound and shows just south of there (south end of the Dover Air Base) at a golf course called Jonathans Landing. It was never inteded as a sound venue - SO....I might have you beat on that one.

That said - its 'Mericas Only Blues Joint with a Golf course built on it!

Very cool! I've done Jimmy and Felcia's concert a few times that they throw in the early fall at the brewery down the road. I hear that June Jam is a big event in Dover every year too, but I've never played that. I definitely dig it out there, real nice area for sure.

 

[Frankjohnson]

= I hear that June Jam is a big event in Dover every year too, but I've never played that. I definitely dig it out there, real nice area for sure.

This was my first year playing June Jam - we had a BLAST! We were on early, and honestly I was ok with that. The sound guys were great to work with!

 

[JimmyM]

Sound guys will do whatever they want. I have been in rooms where EVERYONE's bass tone sounded the same - why exactly? The room was small and the acoustics were horribly bad. He did it so the bass was actually audible. Not the nicest thing to do, but it made the bands sound ok. Not much in variety, but it worked. I have worked with a few sound guy's who actually trusted me. They noticed that I provided a Radial JDI, Audix D4 mic with mic stand, and made sure to keep my stage volume at a non-destructive level. Guess what? I got the tone I heard on stage coming through loud and clear in the PA. Sure, it was tweaked a little to work with the room, but I finally felt like my tone actually mattered.

I think the majority of us get angry with sound guy's because they will take forever to get the drums sounding good then spend a few more minutes getting the guitars rolling. Then spend even more time on the vocals. We all understand feedback issues and what not...but when our tone comes around, it's about 10 seconds. No discussion on our tone, effects we will switch on later in the night or anything. It's like, "You play bass, you sound like 'this' and that is all." We buy all of this gear for ourselves I guess. BUT we consider our tones/notes to bring the band together - when a sound guy takes 10 seconds on your tone, and never talks to you or actually listens to you about the tone you are trying to create, you feel useless. You feel as if everything you are doing is a waste of time.

lfmn16 has the right idea, talk to the sound man and hope for the best. In the future, I am going to introduce myself, buy him a drink and/or slip him $10 to let him know I appreciate his efforts.

Honestly, how much time they take on my sound really doesn't matter to me. I often think sound techs take way too much time anyway. They can get sounds while they mix us, and with bass, I think it's better to wait till then anyway.