How much gain do you give the house board?

[Craig_S]

I didn't say he shouldn't work with you. I'm just saying IF your signal is jacked up to far he won't be able to.

+1

Anyone who thinks their uber awesome, heavily EQed sound they love to hear on stage actually works for the FOH mix needs schooling and deserves to be buried in the mix, like they normally are.

It's not about the soundman making you sound how he wants to, it's about him making you sound how he NEEDS to so the BAND sounds good. But, some of us are too selfish and hard headed to let that fact settle in, for some reason.

 

[Mooch]

Since I bought my Genz Benz SL600 I have run line-out "post-eq" and run at the level I use at practice. 11 o'clock gain and 3 o'clock volume. Haven't had a single issue with being told to turn this dial or that dial. Have heard I have the best sounding rig the sound guys have ever heard more than a few times though so I must be doing something right.

 

[georgestrings]

total BS. a sound guy should work with you, not make the judgement of what he thinks you should sound like.

I don't think he was trying to say anything different, tbh...

I *think* the point he was trying to make is, if your send to the board is heavily EQ'd, it *might* make things quite difficult for the soundman to make that signal work well with his PA - which is true, IME...

I like to run a post-EQ DI send, because it gets a little of my preamp's tube warmth into my sound - but I also don't go crazy with EQing... *If* the soundman seems like he knows what he's doing, and *if* he tells me that my EQ'd send is giving him trouble, I'll probably make an adjustment in an effort to make things work for both of us... Usually, that means cutting some lows, although I have had to run a Pre-EQ DI send, or even use a separate DI box in a couple of cases over the years - I always have a countryman 85 with me on gigs, just in case...

It usually isn't an issue for me - usually, the soundman is either actually working for my band, or we're using a guy that is working a house system in a club or hall, and has his act together - and probably knows me(I've been around for awhile)... in either of those cases, I never have any troubles...


- georgestrings

 

[georgestrings]

+1

Anyone who thinks their uber awesome, heavily EQed sound they love to hear on stage actually works for the FOH mix needs schooling and deserves to be buried in the mix, like they normally are.

It's not about the soundman making you sound how he wants to, it's about him making you sound how he NEEDS to so the BAND sounds good. But, some of us are too selfish and hard headed to let that fact settle in, for some reason.

I totally agree with the 1st paragraph, and partially agree with the 2nd:

As long as the soundman is listening to the sound the band is trying for on stage - and making that louder thru the PA, I have no trouble agreeing with the 2nd paragraph.... *If* he's taking it upon himself to play producer, and totally change their sound - I don't agree with it...


- georgestrings

 

[georgestrings]

Since I bought my Genz Benz SL600 I have run line-out "post-eq" and run at the level I use at practice. 11 o'clock gain and 3 o'clock volume. Haven't had a single issue with being told to turn this dial or that dial. Have heard I have the best sounding rig the sound guys have ever heard more than a few times though so I must be doing something right.

I'm not surprised - I've played thru atleast half a dozen different Genz-Benz heads, and they all had great sounding DIs...


- georgestrings

 

[AnchorHoy]

As long as the soundman is listening to the sound the band is trying for on stage - and making that louder thru the PA, I have no trouble agreeing with the 2nd paragraph.... *If* he's taking it upon himself to play producer, and totally change their sound - I don't agree with it....

+1

That really is the crux of the biscuit, isn't it? As long as the soundman is on the same page as the band, then I have absolutely no problem with giving him a pre-EQ DI signal. I tend to run my tone pretty much on the clean side anyway, and the DI helps him translate that to the FOH speakers

What drives me bonkers is when I'm playing with my Americana band and make every effort to calmly and respectfully get my "20 foot tall upright" tone (fairly restrained lows, plenty of mids, clear but not overbearing highs) and still end up sounding like the muddy mess at some cut-rate DJ dance party

There's no amount of technology that can fix a bad ear......

 

[rockstarbassist]

Whatever they ask for.
That's the brilliance of a DI-Level control. Still can crank the Gain on the front/preamp end and it act independently of the DI signal.
If it's too hot, I turn it down. If not enough, I turn up. Easy!

 

[georgestrings]

Whatever they ask for.
That's the brilliance of a DI-Level control. Still can crank the Gain on the front/preamp end and it act independently of the DI signal.
If it's too hot, I turn it down. If not enough, I turn up. Easy!

Yup - I usually run my pre gain at 1-2 o'clock for a little tube warmth, and leave my DI send level at noon on my M-pulse 600, with a post-EQ DI send... Out of close to 100 gigs with this amp, I've only been asked to adjust the level setting a couple of times, and I always make the offer to do so as soon as I see the soundman... I've been asked to ground lift a couple of times with this rig, also - and it always ended up being a problem on the PA end of things(bad snake channel, bad cable, etc...)


- georgestrings

 

[monkeyfinger]

I have been on both sides of the stage. First, what happens on stage and what happens at FOH are two completely independent operations.
Second, I think the answer depends on the situation.

On Stage

Your rig is providing sound for the stage. This allows you and your band members to hear the bass. The sound should be loud enough to be heard on stage. The tone should inspire you and the band to perform the best. The only issues that effect FOH is when too much volume makes if hard for the sound man to mix FOH and monitors or when too much low end, (below 100Hz), interferes with the FOH subs. The best situation is a little bass in the monitors farthest from you. This allows you to be heard by everyone without a lot of volume from your amp. Also, I will often ask bass players to cut the lows. This often cleans up a muddy sound from FOH. You will get a lot of lows from the FOH subs anyway, so you don't need a lot on stage.

FOH

What the soundman does depends a lot on his relationship to you and to the venue. The most common case is the soundman is paid by the venue. His primary job is to make sure the show runs smoothly. This means getting the stage set quickly, getting monitors set to provide sufficient levels without feedback, and to get FOH sounding good. Notice that getting you to sound your best is not on his dance-card. For him/her that is a nice-to-have. Most soundmen will walk away from the board once they get you up in the mains. This may sound crappy, but the guy is working his butt off before the show, between bands and after the show. Give him a break. If the guy shows an interest in getting your sound, consider that a gift. Show him you appreciate it.

What you send to the house will depend on your bass and amp. If you have no effects, I will put a DI between your bass and the amp. If you use effects I will take the signal post effects and pre-eq. This are by far the most common ways of patching in a bass. The rest is a nice to have, but I wouldn't expect it from the house soundman.

Now, if you really want your sound at the FOH, hire your own soundman. He should come to your rehearsals and work with you to get the sound you want. That guy/girl will work with the venue's soundman to get your sound. But this means you have to pay the soundman out of your pocket. Most bands are not willing to do that. So you get what you paid for.

 

[rockstarbassist]

What you send to the house will depend on your bass and amp. If you have no effects, I will put a DI between your bass and the amp. If you use effects I will take the signal post effects and pre-eq. This are by far the most common ways of patching in a bass. The rest is a nice to have, but I wouldn't expect it from the house soundman.

Most FX sound like crap IME which defeats the purpose of even having them through your standard "house" Rapco $25 DI that a lot of inexperienced soundpeople try and use. Even on a quality DI like my JDI, it doesn't sound nearly as good as through the Post OR Pre-EQ on my amp, and that's how it is- especially on overdrive or distortion or fuzz. Some modulation FX sound alright or passable but hardly as good as they could. Sounds like tone from a cardboard box, which if that isn't what you're going for, is a big problem.
Ideally you'd want to mic it but that's not always available. Again, there's a reason 99% of guitards who use gain/OD as part of their tone don't DI in straight from their JCM or Dual Rec. Sounds terrible.

 

[rockstarbassist]

Yup - I usually run my pre gain at 1-2 o'clock for a little tube warmth, and leave my DI send level at noon on my M-pulse 600, with a post-EQ DI send... Out of close to 100 gigs with this amp, I've only been asked to adjust the level setting a couple of times, and I always make the offer to do so as soon as I see the soundman... I've been asked to ground lift a couple of times with this rig, also - and it always ended up being a problem on the PA end of things(bad snake channel, bad cable, etc...)


- georgestrings

Yeah for whatever reason the DI on the Carbine is hotter than Mesa's I've used in the past, or at least seems that way. I have mine at about 10:00, whereas on the MP600, BB750, Titan, etc, it's usually at least straight up noon if not past.

Mesa's have epic DI's and I think if more people heard what "we" do when using them, they'd get more onboard, especially with the Post-EQ signal...

 

[monkeyfinger]

Yup, most distortion sounds like doo-doo when going direct. That is not going to stop the soundman from trying to DI you there anyway. Remember, he is trying to keep the show going. That is what he gets paid for. If you don't like what house provides for a DI, get your own. If you really want your cab mic'd, bring your own mic, (and stand). Chances are the house is using a bunch of 57s and 58s and a crappy drum mic. The sound guy has a standard way of mic'ing a band that does not include mic'ing your cab. He has a standard DI that is beat to crap, sound lousy, but works.

If I am playing bass and not running sound, I would take the signal from after the first gain stage, that is pre-eq, otherwise I would mic the cab. The problem with mic'ing the cab, and post eq, is if I make a volume or eq adjustment, the soundman has to do the same. This makes his/her job harder. So post eq, mic'ing makes it harder to adjust for stage needs.

Most FX sound like crap IME which defeats the purpose of even having them through your standard "house" Rapco $25 DI that a lot of inexperienced soundpeople try and use. Even on a quality DI like my JDI, it doesn't sound nearly as good as through the Post OR Pre-EQ on my amp, and that's how it is- especially on overdrive or distortion or fuzz. Some modulation FX sound alright or passable but hardly as good as they could. Sounds like tone from a cardboard box, which if that isn't what you're going for, is a big problem.
Ideally you'd want to mic it but that's not always available. Again, there's a reason 99% of guitards who use gain/OD as part of their tone don't DI in straight from their JCM or Dual Rec. Sounds terrible.

 

[worshiprocker]

so far the DI on my GK 700rb-ii works nicey... I usually dime it and run it pre EQ.... We don't pay huge venues so people in the crowd can get all the growl from my cab and the boom from the FOH...

 

[Handreas]

total BS. a sound guy should work with you, not make the judgement of what he thinks you should sound like.

It's not about that. When you EQ your head you're shaping the sound coming from your cabinet. And you need to let the sound dude shape the sound coming from his cabinets. The EQ that works for your particular amp/cab combination will not sound the same through his amps/cabinets. That's why you should send him as much a flat signal as you can. A few small tweaks won't ruin anything, but that cool, scooped sound with a +18dB boost @ 40Hz that makes your trousers shake on stage will probably not sound right coming out of FOH. And instead of using the board-eq to make you sound awesome, he has to use it for damage control.

I agree that a soundguy should strive to make you sound like you, and being one myself, that's what I try to. Getting a somewhat flat signal makes this much easier. I'll listen to the sound coming from your amp, then try to replicate it on my board, then make changes if I have to, to make the bass blend nicely with the band.
A lot of people obsess over MY SOUND (and I'm one of them ), but between your fingers, your bass, your effects and your preamp (if I use the DI out on the head/Sansamp/similar), not including your three-band eq isn't going to severely ruin your sound.

EDIT: As for the original question: I'd give the sound tech as much as possible. Better signal-to-noise ratio. Ask the tech if he needs more or less during sound check and I'm sure you'll get an answer.

 

[vasoundman]

I have run sound systems for many professional bands like Maroon 5 they bring in a system pushing 10,000 watts this really depons on a lot the size of the room how many people are in the room or outside I normaly run the amps half way set the mains on the mixer half way this way you do not have to push gain on each channel to get volume if you push your gains you can get more feedback makes the microphnes more sentive also if you run amps and mains half way your not pushing your amps for more volume which can over heat set the mains on the mixer half way and get a green light on your gain and push the sliders on each channel for more volume ..

 

[projectMalamute]

MAKE IT STOP!!!!!

 

[ggunn]

I been mixing live concerts for lated 15 years been with many professional bands like maroon 5 ect. well setting gain and volume is just not set at the mixer how you get volume you want nad have head room is start with the amps set the amps half way deponds on the amount of power your pushing also I run systems pushing 10,000 watts so half way is lots of power and head room then set your mains on your mixer half way this give gain on each channel losts of volume and dont need too push your gain to get more volume which makes the microphone more subject for feedback then set your QS full volume then on the mixer use your slider controls on each channel to controle the volume for each channel .. Why I do this is because if you dont set your amps half way and mains and EQS you will be pushing all your equiment to get volume and which makes the amps over heat and break down lot faster so you can take my word for it or just keep on doing what you are now up to you

Dude. Punctuation and paragraphs. Do you talk that way? ;^)

 

[georgestrings]

I been mixing live concerts for lated 15 years been with many professional bands like maroon 5 ect. well setting gain and volume is just not set at the mixer how you get volume you want nad have head room is start with the amps set the amps half way deponds on the amount of power your pushing also I run systems pushing 10,000 watts so half way is lots of power and head room then set your mains on your mixer half way this give gain on each channel losts of volume and dont need too push your gain to get more volume which makes the microphone more subject for feedback then set your QS full volume then on the mixer use your slider controls on each channel to controle the volume for each channel .. Why I do this is because if you dont set your amps half way and mains and EQS you will be pushing all your equiment to get volume and which makes the amps over heat and break down lot faster so you can take my word for it or just keep on doing what you are now up to you

Why should anyone here take your word for anything??? Personally, I think the above is a load of crap...


- georgestrings

 

[monkeyfinger]

That was exactly what I thought.

Why should anyone here take your word for anything??? Personally, I think the above is a load of crap...


- georgestrings

 

[Johnny Crab]

I give FOH a line level signal.

Same here.
Since it is split(1 to amp, one to FOH) I carry an ART DI in case they "don't have one with 1/4" input". The Line 6 outputs what I hear in headphones or via ACME B2's at home.