Double Bass How the heck did they do it?

[lucas vigor]

This question is primarily for those upright bassists that were around during the 50's, 60's and 70's and playing upright live and in the studio. (But if anyone else knows the answer, please chime in!)

I know that decent pickups for bass have only been around for a limited time. Nowadays, we have so many excellent choices for bass....but what about before?


The reason I ask is that on many classic recordings and even TV shows and live recordings during the late 50s, early 60s, the bass was so prominent and well recorded...it always sounded so great.

Take the village vanguard recordings with the Bill Evans trio, for example, what was he using for amplification?

We talk a lot about strings and such, but what did they have back then as far as pickups and amps for bass? or was it usually just well miked through a PA system?

 

[uprightbass.com]

Funny that you should bring up the subject because I'm in the process of writing about how basses sound different in recordings from different eras, and why.

During the time period that you're asking about, it was a just a mic. To be heard, you had to play so that you could be heard. Pickups and amps are just a necessary evil anyhow.

Gut strings also contributed greatly to the sound during that time period.

Here's a nice picture of a typical setup:

 

[lucas vigor]

So, even in those early days clubs like the village vanguard and Shelley's manhole must have had really good PA systems!


I am guessing for a rehearsal, like say Bill Evans got his trio together, they probably just played soft enough that the bass could be heard.....but what about when a big band rehearsed? How was the bass ever heard? Or did they always rehearse with a PA system?


I ask, because in my orchestra it takes 5-10 bass players to be heard!

 

[colcifer]

Pluck really, really hard. No joke.

 

[Paul Barsic]

Can you post a higher res image? It would be easier to see the mic placement. The stand is clearly right in front of the bass, but I want to be able to see the position of the mic relative to the bass. Also, do you know who is in that trio?

As far as rehearsal, I play guts, and the other two guys don't have any trouble hearing me. The drummer has a light touch (they all should). If we were doing anything outside of a 1 bedroom apartment, I might need to use an amp.

 

[uprightbass.com]

Can you post a higher res image? It would be easier to see the mic placement. The stand is clearly right in front of the bass, but I want to be able to see the position of the mic relative to the bass. Also, do you know who is in that trio?

As far as rehearsal, I play guts, and the other two guys don't have any trouble hearing me. The drummer has a light touch (they all should). If we were doing anything outside of a 1 bedroom apartment, I might need to use an amp.

Bill Evans Trio with Larry Bunker. As far as mic placement, live it was always in front of the F-hole, which is why the bass sounded inaccurately boomy in old live recordings. Mic's back then had to be as close as possible since they weren't really engineered for precision. I hate how the bass sounds mic'ed at the F-hole. Every competent audio engineer today knows not to do that.

In some small jazz clubs, it is still frowned upon to use amps. I've always been a proponent of practicing and rehearsing without an amp in small sets and using as little amp as possible because it really makes you become efficient at drawing out sound from a bass rather than relying on a volume knob to make up for weak technique. I'm louder, have a much larger dynamic range and the bass really sings with the same effort from my hands because of it.

 

[joe5cent]

Well in a studio the bass can be located to get some isolation, which allows the mic to move away from the F hole. Last year I 'did sound' for Jeff Hamilton and Christov Luty(sp?) in a club. He carries an EV mic and it was great (they are emphatic no pickups!) . They play at a acoustic level and manage their own dynamics. Once I set level on the two piano mics and the bass mic I literally had nothing to do except for sip wine and listen in amazement.

As far as the old days, I have had some locals tell me that they could fit two fingers under their E string back in the day, and that you got to a gig early to setup in the corner whenever possible.

 

[Ric Vice]

In the 50's, 60's and early 70's microphones were used most of the time. The earliest pickups, Ampeg's mic on a stick ( tailpiece) and the De Armond were pretty awful. The Polytone and first Barcus Berry pickups came in around 1973 or so and frankly they didn't sound all that good either. Until the Underwood came on the market in the early 80's ( correct me if I'm wrong here) most players didn't really use pickups, Ron Carter, being an early adopter. Some studio engineers started taking pickups directly into the board ( really ugly sound) but others used microphones (the smart ones with ears). Then we have the dark ages when everybody (well not everybody) used pickups.

Ric

P.S. the sound of Scott La Faro on Sunday at the Village Vanguard is exquisite as are Oscar Pettiford's studio albums so someone knew how to do it right.

 

[Roger Davis]

I started playing in the fifties and would often do dance band gigs that were four hours minimum with no amp. My fingers were so raw I used to have to tape them. I remember when the De Armond came in and none of us was really impressed. I could play quite happily in a jazz quintet un-amped with a nice tasty drummer. What killed it for most bass players was the advent of keyboard man. You just couldn't project through that wall of sound. That's when the Fender bass made its entry. And I forgot about double bass for 20 years.

It's strange to be part of the great debate that we have now regarding the merits of all the various pickups and methods of amplifying the bass; we are truly spoilt for choice.

 

[lucas vigor]

How about the types of basses back then? Were most of them carved tops?

 

[Zeb Norris]

For a great acoustic sound when recording, using a vintage ribbon mic is recommended. But they're expensive and delicate, so they aren't the most common mics out there.
Used to be more common.

 

[Ric Vice]

How about the types of basses back then? Were most of them carved tops?

Epiphone was building instruments in 1939 I don't know when they started to construct them from plywood. Since good basses were in good supply in the 1950's and into the early 70's most of the great players had a carved instrument. Scott La Faro had a unique Prescott that was 3/4 sized. Paul Chambers bass is still belongs to his children. I think Charley Hayden's bass is a Villiaume. Percy Heath had a fine old Italian instrument and so did Ray Brown.

Ric

 

[Jason Sypher]

Basses were pretty cheap then. In the photos I've seen most jazz players had a carved instrument, predominantly German, many factory built. Those players had the basses set up for volume and they learned to project they're sound. High speed playing was not the norm, high action was! They used they're whole arm to get that big sound. If you set your bass up like that, you'll see what it was like.

 

[Nathan Parker]

So, even in those early days clubs like the village vanguard and Shelley's manhole must have had really good PA systems!


I am guessing for a rehearsal, like say Bill Evans got his trio together, they probably just played soft enough that the bass could be heard.....but what about when a big band rehearsed? How was the bass ever heard? Or did they always rehearse with a PA system?


I ask, because in my orchestra it takes 5-10 bass players to be heard!

It's really not as complicated as all this. It's about having a bass that projects, having your strings raised high enough off the fingerboard, and really focusing on getting the loudest, clearest sound you can.

I play in the Seattle area and I don't ever use an amp. My bass has no pickups on it. I do at least 1 big band engagement a month with no amp or mic into the PA, and everything is fine. The band does not come down to my level, they just play as they always do.

The double bass is an acoustic instrument, and it was never designed to be used with an amp. It can put out enough volume on it's own to be heard in most jazz ensembles. When you get into the world of electric piano's, organs and all that, then it's different. People use amps now as a convenience, but they are, in my opinion, not required to fill the role of a jazz bass player in 90% of situations.

 

[Matt Ides]

I have to ask how is your bass set-up? Especially acoustic with a big band?

Great thread!

 

[Nathan Parker]

I have to ask how is your bass set-up? Especially acoustic with a big band?

Great thread!

I use gut strings, set up fairly high. I don't know the numbers, but I use the Ray Brown method of testing. In an article I read, he said that he liked to be able to slide his ring finger underneath the strings at the end of the fingerboard. So, I went with that, and it's worked thus far. I also use a laborie endpin. While I think it has made my bass louder and more resonant, I think I could produce enough volume without it.

I think it's mostly got to do with having your strings high enough to get some volume. After that, you have to change your technique a bit. I only use 1 finger (unless it gets pretty quick) and I keep my right hand down to the end of the fingerboard. As far as my left hand, I try and get as much arm weight into the notes as possible and basically try to squeeze the life out of the string. I think this is where the bent endpin is most helpful, as you can really use gravity to get some more weight on those notes.

And lastly, you have to play with some economy. No more 32nd trilled spiccatto hammer-flams. It's hard for much more than quarter and eight notes to translate to the listener. This is all just my opinion, and it's probably wrong. But, it works for me.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

The double bass is an acoustic instrument, and it was never designed to be used with an amp. It can put out enough volume on it's own to be heard in most jazz ensembles. ... they are, in my opinion, not required to fill the role of a jazz bass player in 90% of situations.

Oh boy, don't get me started. Yes, it is designed as an acoustic instrument, but whether one uses a pickup through a bass amp, or a mic through a PA, it's still being amplified so that the the player and audience can hear it, hopefully in a good mix with the band. I've been to enough performances with inaudible bass to know that help is required. Here's an example: Freddie Hubbard Quintet, small club, electricity went out and they played acoustically. I couldn't hear the bassist from 15 feet away.

On the playing side, if one is happy to be a "thumper" and the bass is set up solely for volume, then maybe one could get away with it to some extent, but with the volume of most contemporary drums and drummers, guitarists, and the use of sound reinforcement for other instruments, for me it is a losing and frustrating proposition. Maybe pure acoustic playing can work in a quiet concert situation in a small room, but for 95% of the playing I do, fagetaboudit. IMO, of course.

 

[Nathan Parker]

Oh boy, don't get me started. Yes, it is designed as an acoustic instrument, but whether one uses a pickup through a bass amp, or a mic through a PA, it's still being amplified so that the the player and audience can hear it, hopefully in a good mix with the band. I've been to enough performances with inaudible bass to know that help is required. Here's an example: Freddie Hubbard Quintet, small club, electricity went out and they played acoustically. I couldn't hear the bassist from 15 feet away.

On the playing side, if one is happy to be a "thumper" and the bass is set up solely for volume, then maybe one could get away with it to some extent, but with the volume of most contemporary drums and drummers, guitarists, and the use of sound reinforcement for other instruments, for me it is a losing and frustrating proposition. Maybe pure acoustic playing can work in a quiet concert situation in a small room, but for 95% of the playing I do, fagetaboudit. IMO, of course.

I hear you, Eric. I'm not advocating that people all go back to using gut strings, no amps and all that. I understand and appreciate why people use amps today. I'm just trying to say that it's not impossible for people to play gigs without using amplification. As to the degree of success of said endeavors, I will leave that for history to decide.

As a primer, I will say to anyone reading, they should listen to Eric, as he is a genuine badass. And I'm just a guy. His opinion is better than mine.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

Thanks, Nathan, much appreciated!

 

[Roger Davis]

For a great acoustic sound when recording, using a vintage ribbon mic is recommended. But they're expensive and delicate, so they aren't the most common mics out there.
Used to be more common.

Interesting point, that. What I didn't say in my post (didn't want to go on too much) was that my first tentative step to amplify my bass was to put a Reslo ribbon mic in front of one of the f-holes (I know!). That used to be the mic of choice for most bands' PA. I played about with the PA mic and found that I could get a good sound so I adopted it. I was very pleased with the sound and got a lot of compliments although it would probably sound a bit grim in today's climate. I don't remember any feedback problems either.