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Double Bass How the heck did they do it?

#21
Yes he is. I've studied with him.

That said I fall somewhere in the middle on this issue. My goal is to play as loud as I can acoustically without compromising too much facility. The approach I take when I'm using either a mic or pickup is to start acoustic and just bump the amp or PA enough to add presence.
 
#22
Nathan Parker said:
I also use a laborie endpin. While I think it has made my bass louder and more resonant, I think I could produce enough volume without it.
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I can hear myself better with the laborie pin. Maybe it has something to do with the increased upward angle of the bass. I had someone play my bass with the Laborie and then with the normal pin and from out front, the volume and tone was pretty much identical with both.
 
#23
Eric Hochberg said:
Oh boy, don't get me started.
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Too late. :D

Yes, it is designed as an acoustic instrument, but whether one uses a pickup through a bass amp, or a mic through a PA, it's still being amplified so that the the player and audience can hear it, hopefully in a good mix with the band. I've been to enough performances with inaudible bass to know that help is required. Here's an example: Freddie Hubbard Quintet, small club, electricity went out and they played acoustically. I couldn't hear the bassist from 15 feet away.

On the playing side, if one is happy to be a "thumper" and the bass is set up solely for volume, then maybe one could get away with it to some extent, but with the volume of most contemporary drums and drummers, guitarists, and the use of sound reinforcement for other instruments, for me it is a losing and frustrating proposition. Maybe pure acoustic playing can work in a quiet concert situation in a small room, but for 95% of the playing I do, fagetaboudit. IMO, of course.;)
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I completely agree. Sometimes I wish it weren't so, but then I could say that about a lot of the situations life hands me. Things being what they are, I use an amp an soothe my conscience by trying really hard not to be the person in the band who is forcing the volume up.
 
#25
Chris Fitzgerald said:
Things being what they are, I use an amp an soothe my conscience by trying really hard not to be the person in the band who is forcing the volume up.
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Yes, last night I played with a fine sextet, a la Jazz Messengers, no PA. I brought my 10" combo amp. The keyboard player and drummer were playing so loud I gave up "competing" and just got through it...I wouldn't want to be a horn player in that situation.
 
#26
Check out Tommy Potter's setup. Whew!

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As noted here, this kind of setup, along with gut strings is what provided volume for clubs at least. That, plus a good deal musician-ly attention to dynamics and balance sans amps.

I'm not sure I'd like to sacrifice facility (not saying that Tommy Potter ever did), nor the freedom of my median nerve to pass through the carpal tunnel of my left wrist in order to sound like Tommy. But I am definitely from the department of lesser amplification and enjoy playing most in unamplified setting, no matter how good the pickup or amp.
 
#28
Another way to cut is to play in tune. Intonation has a lot to do with perceived volume. I concur, never compete soundwise. When you compete you tense up and you are very prone to injury. If the musicians are so caught up, it means they have lost the opportunity to create something bigger than themselves. Let them do they're thing and save your hands for another opportunity.
 
#29
Jason Sypher said:
If the musicians are so caught up, it means they have lost the opportunity to create something bigger than themselves. Let them do they're thing and save your hands for another opportunity.
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That's a gem right there. Nice.

I'm going to concur with an earlier statement that sometimes electric pianos can be as much at fault for volume issues as drums. I play from time to time with a guy that is a little hyper sensitive about playing too hard and injuring himself. As a result, when things start to get dicey, he just turns up, and up, and up. It turns into the band vs crowd battle. Drummer gets louder, keys turn up, drummer gets louder, keys turn up, until the bass is left in the dust. I relish the gigs I do with a real piano, not necessarily for the volume issue, but because everyone in the group has to balance the old fashioned way rather then turning knobs. I think everyone listens better and better music gets made as a result.
 
#30
Mike Goodbar said:
Check out Tommy Potter's setup. Whew!
.

.......I'm not sure I'd like to sacrifice facility (not saying that Tommy Potter ever did), nor the freedom of my median nerve to pass through the carpal tunnel of my left wrist in order to sound like Tommy. But I am definitely from the department of lesser amplification and enjoy playing most in unamplified setting, no matter how good the pickup or amp.
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Mike,
I see what you are talking about. My impression of the bassists that played the first Be Bop sessions is that they were perfectly happy just to be able to play great walking lines at those breakneck tempos that Diz and Parker were setting. Oscar Pettiford and Ray Brown could play over those tunes but they chose their solos wisely. After playing those tunes at those tempos night after night anything else would seem slow by comparison. Kind of running in a greyhound race in Florida.

Ric
 
#31
+100 for playing in tune. It's why you'll hear some classical cats say that a 4-bass section can sound just as big as an 8-bass section, as long as the intonation is spot on (and of course, there's sound projection issues for arco.. press too hard with the bow and the sound gets dampened.. lighten up a and bow closer to the bridge = bigger sound. Clench with your left hand and it's the same thing.. but lighten up so (only) you can even hear some slight string-on-fingerboard "buzzing" in your ear = freer vibration and more sound).

I think it's an invaluable learning experience to explore and try to achieve a big enough sound acoustically to make it work with whatever size group (even if there's some crash and burn situations, I still think it's kinda worth it) and whatever room. It's an issue of intonation, bass set up, enough technique that you can remain relaxed and not tense up while still putting put out a big sound, where you're able to be on stage (out front? back of the bass to a wall?).. of course, it's also a matter of taste (and definitely the musical taste of those you're playing with). It takes a lot of trial and error but it's an awesome feeling when you play somewhere where you wouldn't think this is possible (and in the moment, as you perceive things, you don't think you're being heard).. only after the gig, a friend that was across the room says they could hear you just fine.
 
#33
Mike Goodbar said:
Check out Tommy Potter's setup. Whew!

As noted here, this kind of setup, along with gut strings is what provided volume for clubs at least. That, plus a good deal musician-ly attention to dynamics and balance sans amps.

I'm not sure I'd like to sacrifice facility (not saying that Tommy Potter ever did), nor the freedom of my median nerve to pass through the carpal tunnel of my left wrist in order to sound like Tommy. But I am definitely from the department of lesser amplification and enjoy playing most in unamplified setting, no matter how good the pickup or amp.
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Also keep in mind where Tommy's standing, out in front of the horns and drums, which no doubt plays into being heard. I agree about the whole dynamics thing and I'm sure these guys, like any great band, could to blend really well.
 
#34
I guess my point is that it's not impossible to do. As far as bass players are concerned, I am the least among them. Not super talented, didn't go to a good music school or anything like that. I'm not prodigious in any sense of the word. Yet I am able to play without an amp at all my gigs without too much complaint.

I'm not the most working bass player in Seattle by any stretch of the imagination, but I am able to play without an amp where others use them. I just encourage people to try it out, it's really not as insane as you think it might be.

Or maybe I am a super talented freak and I don't even know it. God that would be nice.

Edit: I should add that I am at the mercy of others. If they are not listening, and choose to bury me, it can be pretty crappy. I'm fortunate enough to play with people that are far better musicians than I, and they are very accommodating.
 
#37
I'm guess I could be considered a moderate if the extremes are no amps and someone who has to have an amp. I've always considered it a necessary evil, but I only turn up the volume when I'm getting to the point where I'm overplaying the strings an still not hearing myself. I usually start my amp a zero and bump it incrementally as needed up during rehearsals and the gig. Usually that is at larger venues where all other instruments are mic'd and amped as well or large ensembles.

The benefits are a much more natural and richer sound out of the bass and the amp. It also greatly reduces feedback.

I know that some of you who have a bass guitar background are used to relying heavily on the amps, which results in a much different tone on the DB. I'd encourage you to try to add amp only when the strings are overplayed.
 
#38
I had a double header on Saturday and didn't have time to set up my amp for the second gig. Nobody in the audience knew I was ampless and most were surprised, at the end of the night, to find out. The band, however, had a hard time hearing me because we were crowded onto a small stage and they were used to hearing the amp from behind and below us. No drums on the second gig--guitar, bass and sax.

I did play differently on the two gigs. On the first, I could play much more technically complex passages and I had a lot more flexibility soloing. On the second, I just played meat and potatoes bass going for projection and volume but it got the job done. Soloing was mostly rhythmic. Both gigs were satisfying for different reasons.

mark
 
#39
Another thing to consider for big band playing is a sharp end-pin standing on a hollow box. I can't back this up with anything but anecdotes, but I was told that that was how Blanton did it. The box would act like a natural resonance chamber. I tried this once at college, and it actually worked to some extent (I didn't have guts jacked up a mile off the FB but it made my bass louder). I also saw John Clayton play my bass at a clinic, and he made it sound WAY bigger than I ever could.
 
#40
uprightbass.com said:
I know that some of you who have a bass guitar background are used to relying heavily on the amps, which results in a much different tone on the DB. I'd encourage you to try to add amp only when the strings are overplayed.
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Haha bass guitarists who rely on an amp sound just as bad as upright bassists that do. It seems that upright players are more open to the idea that your sound is really in your hands, and that you don't infact need a bunch of gear to get good tone. I hate it when I see anybody sit on stage and fondle the strings on a bass instead of just digging in and going for it, ya dig?
 

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